5 ms·

Other quote from the reuters article (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max/designed-by-clowns-boeing-releases-internal-messages-that-disparage-737-m

by antpls 7y ago

Other quote from the reuters article (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max/designed-by-clowns-boeing-releases-internal-messages-that-disparage-737-max-regulators-idUSKBN1Z902N?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max/designed-by...) : “I want to stress the importance of holding firm that there will not be any type of simulator training required to transition from NG to MAX,” Boeing’s 737 chief technical pilot said in a March 2017 email. “Boeing will not allow that to happen. We’ll go face to face with any regulator who tries to make that a requirement.”

markdown 7y ago
> Boeing’s 737 chief technical pilot He's one who really needs to go to jail. Why didn't they name him?
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Because Boeing is a company of national importance and also a monopoly on home turf, vital to the US security and economy so they're untouchable in the US. Just like how no VW employee went to jail in Germany for emissions cheating.
  - dawnerd 7y ago
    Also a good way to turn an employee willing to do terrible things into a whistle blower.
  - cedivad 7y ago
    VW wasn't nearly as bad. People need to go to jail over those deaths and their legacy used as a reminder for those that come next. Here is another damning Boeing message, follow the source for more: https://twitter.com/cedivad/status/1215558552229683200 https://twitter.com/cedivad/status/1215558552229683200
    - FooHentai 7y ago
      As bad by what metric? VWs emissions overshoot has been projected to cause 1200 deaths: http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deaths-europe-0303 http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deat...
      - cedivad 7y ago
        Company values. On one end of the spectrum you have a relatively small group of people cheating and no idea where the bucket stopped. For Boeing you have multiple lines (not only the 737 MAX but the 777 too) going as far as handing over bribes to the FAA, with upper management investing the budget savings on some yacht time.
      - close04 7y ago
        For most people actual deaths are more immediately apparent than estimated deaths. By driving a car, riding a bus, or taking a plane any regular person also contributes to some of those estimated deaths. But this is very different from causing direct deaths by knowingly disabling a safety feature on a car, plane, or bus for example.
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        How do we know that something caused 1200 deaths, instead of, say for example, 1% of a death of each of 120,000 individuals?
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      Define bad. As a cyclist in Europe I breathe in fumes from VWs diesel engines on a daily basis. I'm wondering how shorter the lifespan for me and others like me will be in the long run. I'd say that's pretty bad but as the deaths are not instantaneous, the long term damage is difficult to quantify.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - xiphias2 7y ago
  - Entalpi 7y ago
    Lets not forget that some actually got to go to prison[0]. [0]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-06/vw-executive-sentenced-to-7-years-in-prison-for-diesel-role https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-06/vw-execut...
    - close04 7y ago
      That happened in a US court but VW's CEO and a few other top execs were also criminally indicted in Germany. I think it's still ongoing so no outcome yet.
  - sveme 7y ago
    Not true. Several actually went to jail, including the former boss of Audi, Rupert Stadler. However, their trials are yet to come, so no final decision on jail time yet.
- adwww 7y ago
  The further down the PDF I go, the more I agree with you. Here's another one of his quotes: > There is absolutely no reason to require your pilots to require a Max simulator to begin flying the Max. Once the engines are started, there is only one difference between NG and Max procedurally, and that is that there is no OFF position of the gear handle. Boeing does not understand what is to be gained by a 3h simulator session, when the procedures are essentially the same.
  - phire 7y ago
    This makes me angry. Not that 3 hours of simulator training would have helped in either crash. The problem wasn't that the ipad course was inadequate training for the new procedures (as he said there were no major procedural differences), but that any mention of MCAS had been removed from the manual to avoid needing new or modified procedures. Even worse, MCAS was designed to be near-impossible to override, using data from only one sensor, to avoid the need for procedural changes.
    - jeffnappi 7y ago
      Not to defend Boeing or the folks in these messages in any way, but as I understand it MCAS initially was making use of multiple sensors. It was changed at one point to only use 1[1]. It would be important to know the timing of these messages relative to the development. Another _unverified_ thing I heard was that initially MCAS would only be able to issue a single nose down command, and was later modified to be able to issue multiple. 1. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/the-inside-story-of-mcas-how-boeings-737-max-system-gained-power-and-lost-safeguards/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/the...
      - wayoutthere 7y ago
        From what I understand, the decision to change it from using 2 sensors to 1 sensor was specifically because if the system used 2 sensors it was considered a safety system requiring simulator training for the failure scenarios. IMO Boeing should be required to separate the military and civilian parts of the company and allow the military side to build civilian aircraft based on existing civilian models. I honestly think it's the only way to save the company, because right now airlines, regulators, pilots and passengers do not trust the current incarnation of Boeing. With their shady culture, we don't know what else is hiding in the airplane. Culture issues aren't solved overnight. I fly a lot of miles and am the type of person who keeps the airlines in business, and I will not fly on a 737 MAX for the foreseeable future. My coworkers are in the same boat. I don't see the American carriers being able to return these planes to service before 2022. This is absolutely an existential threat to the US aviation industry, and I think the only solution is to split Boeing up.

by antpls 7y ago

markdown 7y ago

> Boeing’s 737 chief technical pilot He's one who really needs to go to jail. Why didn't they name him?

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
Because Boeing is a company of national importance and also a monopoly on home turf, vital to the US security and economy so they're untouchable in the US. Just like how no VW employee went to jail in Germany for emissions cheating.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  Also a good way to turn an employee willing to do terrible things into a whistle blower.
- cedivad 7y ago
  VW wasn't nearly as bad. People need to go to jail over those deaths and their legacy used as a reminder for those that come next. Here is another damning Boeing message, follow the source for more: https://twitter.com/cedivad/status/1215558552229683200 https://twitter.com/cedivad/status/1215558552229683200
  - FooHentai 7y ago
    As bad by what metric? VWs emissions overshoot has been projected to cause 1200 deaths: http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deaths-europe-0303 http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deat...
    - cedivad 7y ago
      Company values. On one end of the spectrum you have a relatively small group of people cheating and no idea where the bucket stopped. For Boeing you have multiple lines (not only the 737 MAX but the 777 too) going as far as handing over bribes to the FAA, with upper management investing the budget savings on some yacht time.
    - close04 7y ago
      For most people actual deaths are more immediately apparent than estimated deaths. By driving a car, riding a bus, or taking a plane any regular person also contributes to some of those estimated deaths. But this is very different from causing direct deaths by knowingly disabling a safety feature on a car, plane, or bus for example.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      How do we know that something caused 1200 deaths, instead of, say for example, 1% of a death of each of 120,000 individuals?
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Define bad. As a cyclist in Europe I breathe in fumes from VWs diesel engines on a daily basis. I'm wondering how shorter the lifespan for me and others like me will be in the long run. I'd say that's pretty bad but as the deaths are not instantaneous, the long term damage is difficult to quantify.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - xiphias2 7y ago
- Entalpi 7y ago
  Lets not forget that some actually got to go to prison[0]. [0]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-06/vw-executive-sentenced-to-7-years-in-prison-for-diesel-role https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-06/vw-execut...
  - close04 7y ago
    That happened in a US court but VW's CEO and a few other top execs were also criminally indicted in Germany. I think it's still ongoing so no outcome yet.
- sveme 7y ago
  Not true. Several actually went to jail, including the former boss of Audi, Rupert Stadler. However, their trials are yet to come, so no final decision on jail time yet.
adwww 7y ago
The further down the PDF I go, the more I agree with you. Here's another one of his quotes: > There is absolutely no reason to require your pilots to require a Max simulator to begin flying the Max. Once the engines are started, there is only one difference between NG and Max procedurally, and that is that there is no OFF position of the gear handle. Boeing does not understand what is to be gained by a 3h simulator session, when the procedures are essentially the same.
- phire 7y ago
  This makes me angry. Not that 3 hours of simulator training would have helped in either crash. The problem wasn't that the ipad course was inadequate training for the new procedures (as he said there were no major procedural differences), but that any mention of MCAS had been removed from the manual to avoid needing new or modified procedures. Even worse, MCAS was designed to be near-impossible to override, using data from only one sensor, to avoid the need for procedural changes.
  - jeffnappi 7y ago
    Not to defend Boeing or the folks in these messages in any way, but as I understand it MCAS initially was making use of multiple sensors. It was changed at one point to only use 1[1]. It would be important to know the timing of these messages relative to the development. Another _unverified_ thing I heard was that initially MCAS would only be able to issue a single nose down command, and was later modified to be able to issue multiple. 1. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/the-inside-story-of-mcas-how-boeings-737-max-system-gained-power-and-lost-safeguards/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/the...
    - wayoutthere 7y ago
      From what I understand, the decision to change it from using 2 sensors to 1 sensor was specifically because if the system used 2 sensors it was considered a safety system requiring simulator training for the failure scenarios. IMO Boeing should be required to separate the military and civilian parts of the company and allow the military side to build civilian aircraft based on existing civilian models. I honestly think it's the only way to save the company, because right now airlines, regulators, pilots and passengers do not trust the current incarnation of Boeing. With their shady culture, we don't know what else is hiding in the airplane. Culture issues aren't solved overnight. I fly a lot of miles and am the type of person who keeps the airlines in business, and I will not fly on a 737 MAX for the foreseeable future. My coworkers are in the same boat. I don't see the American carriers being able to return these planes to service before 2022. This is absolutely an existential threat to the US aviation industry, and I think the only solution is to split Boeing up.