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> Not sure if I'd agree with extreme disadvantage, perhaps slight I disagree. Without knowledge of C, you're unlikely to have read low-level networking code, f

> Not sure if I'd agree with extreme disadvantage, perhaps slight I disagree. Without knowledge of C, you're unlikely to have read low-level networking code, for example, which is pretty fundamental to an in-depth understanding of modern software. I do agree that C can be a pain to read, mostly because of the crazy macros that a lot of production code tends to use.

axaxs 7y ago
Fair point. Personally, I learned far more about network programming from Beej's famous guide[1] than any code I dug into. Then again, it's one of those things where you don't know what you don't know. Even so, I think it should be required reading for every programmer! [1]: https://beej.us/guide/bgnet/html/ https://beej.us/guide/bgnet/html/
- monoideism 7y ago
  Totally agree about Beej's. But which language is Beej's tutorial in? C, of course! Another classic requiring C is "Unix Programming Environment" by Kernighan and Pike (old C, but still).
pjmlp 7y ago
While I agree that knowing C is relevant, from culture point of view, to be able to use libraries written in C, and specially to be aware of its flaws and when to use something better instead. Writing low level networking code does not require C per se, I have done it in several other languages, and given that the causes for the Morris worm remain in the language, ideally one should use something else.
- monoideism 7y ago
  > Writing low level networking code does not require C per se, Of course it doesn’t. I mentioned using Python to write low-level networking code above (it was painful for someone used to C). I’ve also used Lua for it (better than Python). And as I recall, you’re a fan of Ada and Rust, both of which I have used to write low-level networking code (packet parsers, network protocols, and whatnot). That said, those languages are not typically a well-traveled entry-point into low-level network coding. C is. I’d be as happy as the next guy on HN if we all just moved to Rust, but that’s not in the cards at the moment.
detaro 7y ago
What are you thinking of when you say "low-level networking code"? Because if you mean socket-API, I'd disagree, the C version doesn't teach much its bindings in higher-level languages (which often mirror it quite closely anyways) necessarily wouldn't, even if the languages also offer more abstracted APIs on top.
- monoideism 7y ago
  I'm thinking about network protocols and binary packets, specifically. To me, that stuff is pretty important to have a grasp of. It's very awkward to do packet parsing and generation in Python, for example (I've done it). Even working in front-end dev now, I benefit from understanding what's driving HTTP and WebSocket (High-Performance Browser Networking is also a great book for understanding this stuff).
  - deleted 7y ago
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axaxs 7y ago

Fair point. Personally, I learned far more about network programming from Beej's famous guide[1] than any code I dug into. Then again, it's one of those things where you don't know what you don't know. Even so, I think it should be required reading for every programmer! [1]: https://beej.us/guide/bgnet/html/ https://beej.us/guide/bgnet/html/

monoideism 7y ago
Totally agree about Beej's. But which language is Beej's tutorial in? C, of course! Another classic requiring C is "Unix Programming Environment" by Kernighan and Pike (old C, but still).

pjmlp 7y ago

While I agree that knowing C is relevant, from culture point of view, to be able to use libraries written in C, and specially to be aware of its flaws and when to use something better instead. Writing low level networking code does not require C per se, I have done it in several other languages, and given that the causes for the Morris worm remain in the language, ideally one should use something else.

monoideism 7y ago
> Writing low level networking code does not require C per se, Of course it doesn’t. I mentioned using Python to write low-level networking code above (it was painful for someone used to C). I’ve also used Lua for it (better than Python). And as I recall, you’re a fan of Ada and Rust, both of which I have used to write low-level networking code (packet parsers, network protocols, and whatnot). That said, those languages are not typically a well-traveled entry-point into low-level network coding. C is. I’d be as happy as the next guy on HN if we all just moved to Rust, but that’s not in the cards at the moment.

detaro 7y ago

What are you thinking of when you say "low-level networking code"? Because if you mean socket-API, I'd disagree, the C version doesn't teach much its bindings in higher-level languages (which often mirror it quite closely anyways) necessarily wouldn't, even if the languages also offer more abstracted APIs on top.

monoideism 7y ago
I'm thinking about network protocols and binary packets, specifically. To me, that stuff is pretty important to have a grasp of. It's very awkward to do packet parsing and generation in Python, for example (I've done it). Even working in front-end dev now, I benefit from understanding what's driving HTTP and WebSocket (High-Performance Browser Networking is also a great book for understanding this stuff).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]