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I can see personal e-scooters as being a great alternative to cars for short trips such as commuting less than 5-ish km to work, or taking the kids to school. H

I can see personal e-scooters as being a great alternative to cars for short trips such as commuting less than 5-ish km to work, or taking the kids to school. However, I still think bicycles are vastly preferable. With a pannier rack you get quite a bit more cargo space, and in the winter, the fact that you're physically exerting yourself helps to keep you warm, which makes for a more comfortable and pleasant trip. Also, the whole "Lithium batteries aren't supposed to be operated below 10C" situation limits e-scooters' value for a large chunk of the year in temperate climates. The for-hire e-scooter market continues to seem to me like a novelty more than a realistic transportation option. My city's recent e-scooter pilot program hasn't done much to dispel that notion. People used them quite a bit in the first few weeks, but, by the end, most the scooters were obviously going all day without being used. Also, the whole "last mile" argument started seeming a lot more hollow once I realized that, by the time I got to the busy areas where e-scooters were being placed in the mornings, I was already 75% of the way to the train station. More like "last block". And, at least when they were being used, I'd have to walk well out of my way to find one to use on the way home, too, because they were scattered all over the neighborhood as a result of their normal and intended usage pattern. So, they didn't seem to be much of an effort saver going in either direction. All that said, I'm guessing that they were being highly valued because of the very low barrier to entry for the market. A fleet of e-scooters is presumably quite a bit less expensive to purchase and maintain than a fleet of docked rental bikes. What got lost in the shuffle was the fact that the dock, while it might seem like an unnecessary annoyance, is actually a big part of what makes those rental bikes pleasant to use.

logifail 7y ago
> I can see personal e-scooters as being a great alternative to cars for [...] taking the kids to school If it's close to 5km, are you really going to take the kids on scooters? If it's closer to 1km, how about simply walking? Reality check: we have two (of three) kids in school, their walk to school is just over half a mile, they both walk more or less every single day, in summer and winter and in the rain and the snow. Oddly they really like walking to school in the snow :)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- catalogia 7y ago
  When I was a kid I used to ride my leg-powered bicycle three miles to school. 5km on an e-scooter doesn't seem that far different. That's really not a long distance at all.
  - imustbeevil 7y ago
    You need a drivers license for the dockless scooters, so there's no way for a child to legally ride one.
    - catalogia 7y ago
      You don't need one for a kick scooter though, and exercise is good for kids.
Symbiote 7y ago
I visited Moscow last year, and noticed they have docked scooters: https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/328422-how-rent-electric-scooter https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/328422-how-rent-electric-scoo... Plenty of places have undocked bicycles, so a fair comparison is possible.
- AlexandrB 7y ago
  > Plenty of places have undocked bicycles... They certainly do: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J_4_SQmUNQo/Wuwwsp5w6BI/AAAAAAABWyE/zcuZx21GnDgkVCZMrvRjIl1f-UYCt8u9ACHMYCw/bike-sharing-graveyard-china-26?imgmax=1600 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J_4_SQmUNQo/Wuwwsp5w6BI/A...
- Grue3 7y ago
  I live in Moscow and far more people use docked bikes than docked scooters. There aren't that many places where you can ride the scooter smoothly so they're only available in the very center of Moscow where a lot of sidewalks have been repaved recently. And half of the year the weather is not suitable for riding a scooter.
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    Same story in Canada. I'm in a big city and the scooters aren't really useful outside of the city center, both because of how the scooters do "zones" but also because hills, bike lanes, and sidewalks are very hit-or-miss in terms of quality and safety. They're a fun novelty, but not a solution to public transit.
bobthepanda 7y ago
The major issue for me with biking, particularly e-biking, is that it can be very expensive if your bike is stolen. Secure bike parking is hard to come by in many places, and even secured bike parking can be broken into. In my city it's also very hilly, so I've taken a rideshare bike down the hill but not up it. Docking also solves this problem, but the problem with docks is that they have to go through whatever NIMBY-obstructed local process the municipality has for setting up docks, they have to be appropriately densely spaced together, etc. and that's a lot of work. Bike/scooter share, at least initially, tried doing the Uber model of "break rules and apologize/legalize later", but I think cities wised up after Uber did it once.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  Dockless scooters are also much more immediately annoying to a lot more people - basically, a few people ride them, and everyone else trips over and/or fears getting hit by them on the sidewalks. By contrast, at least in the early stages, rideshare was almost invisible to anyone who wasn't actively using it. That left a much longer runway for the "break rules and then get forgiveness" strategy.
- scrumbledober 7y ago
  i utilized and loved the dockless scooters for the first two weeks of my last job in SF, until I found out there was a bicycle room in the garage downstairs.
- angmarsbane 7y ago
  I'd take my bike everywhere if I knew it'd still be there after I finished having lunch, visiting friends, grocery shopping etc. As it is though, my bike isn't even safe chained up in a locked garage.
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
    What's going on in America if absolutely everyone is afraid if theft? Or are the bikes just big target?
yibg 7y ago
It might be an issue of implementation then, specifically with density. I had a good example of this. About a year ago ebikes were around in Beijing but not many of them. While I enjoyed riding them (beats traffic here over low single digit KM range and faster than a bike) it was frustrating to have to hunt for them. So while I opportunistically used them when convenient it wasn’t frequent. Fast forward to now, there are enough of them around that I can pretty much always find one on the current block. Now I use them as my primary mode of transportation ever short distances.
OkGoDoIt 7y ago
I own both a bike and an e-scooter and one of the things I really like about my e-scooter is I can fold it up and bring it in with me to a restaurant or my office or wherever else I am going. A bike I have to find a place to lock it and pray it doesn’t get stolen, as has happened to me multiple times in the past. This isn’t necessarily applicable to a rental market, but as far as personal ownership the e-scooter is just vastly more convenient in a major city with high rates of bicycle theft.

logifail 7y ago

> I can see personal e-scooters as being a great alternative to cars for [...] taking the kids to school If it's close to 5km, are you really going to take the kids on scooters? If it's closer to 1km, how about simply walking? Reality check: we have two (of three) kids in school, their walk to school is just over half a mile, they both walk more or less every single day, in summer and winter and in the rain and the snow. Oddly they really like walking to school in the snow :)

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
catalogia 7y ago
When I was a kid I used to ride my leg-powered bicycle three miles to school. 5km on an e-scooter doesn't seem that far different. That's really not a long distance at all.
- imustbeevil 7y ago
  You need a drivers license for the dockless scooters, so there's no way for a child to legally ride one.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    You don't need one for a kick scooter though, and exercise is good for kids.

Symbiote 7y ago

I visited Moscow last year, and noticed they have docked scooters: https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/328422-how-rent-electric-scooter https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/328422-how-rent-electric-scoo... Plenty of places have undocked bicycles, so a fair comparison is possible.

AlexandrB 7y ago
> Plenty of places have undocked bicycles... They certainly do: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J_4_SQmUNQo/Wuwwsp5w6BI/AAAAAAABWyE/zcuZx21GnDgkVCZMrvRjIl1f-UYCt8u9ACHMYCw/bike-sharing-graveyard-china-26?imgmax=1600 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J_4_SQmUNQo/Wuwwsp5w6BI/A...
Grue3 7y ago
I live in Moscow and far more people use docked bikes than docked scooters. There aren't that many places where you can ride the scooter smoothly so they're only available in the very center of Moscow where a lot of sidewalks have been repaved recently. And half of the year the weather is not suitable for riding a scooter.
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  Same story in Canada. I'm in a big city and the scooters aren't really useful outside of the city center, both because of how the scooters do "zones" but also because hills, bike lanes, and sidewalks are very hit-or-miss in terms of quality and safety. They're a fun novelty, but not a solution to public transit.

bobthepanda 7y ago

The major issue for me with biking, particularly e-biking, is that it can be very expensive if your bike is stolen. Secure bike parking is hard to come by in many places, and even secured bike parking can be broken into. In my city it's also very hilly, so I've taken a rideshare bike down the hill but not up it. Docking also solves this problem, but the problem with docks is that they have to go through whatever NIMBY-obstructed local process the municipality has for setting up docks, they have to be appropriately densely spaced together, etc. and that's a lot of work. Bike/scooter share, at least initially, tried doing the Uber model of "break rules and apologize/legalize later", but I think cities wised up after Uber did it once.

mumblemumble 7y ago
Dockless scooters are also much more immediately annoying to a lot more people - basically, a few people ride them, and everyone else trips over and/or fears getting hit by them on the sidewalks. By contrast, at least in the early stages, rideshare was almost invisible to anyone who wasn't actively using it. That left a much longer runway for the "break rules and then get forgiveness" strategy.
scrumbledober 7y ago
i utilized and loved the dockless scooters for the first two weeks of my last job in SF, until I found out there was a bicycle room in the garage downstairs.
angmarsbane 7y ago
I'd take my bike everywhere if I knew it'd still be there after I finished having lunch, visiting friends, grocery shopping etc. As it is though, my bike isn't even safe chained up in a locked garage.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
  What's going on in America if absolutely everyone is afraid if theft? Or are the bikes just big target?

yibg 7y ago

It might be an issue of implementation then, specifically with density. I had a good example of this. About a year ago ebikes were around in Beijing but not many of them. While I enjoyed riding them (beats traffic here over low single digit KM range and faster than a bike) it was frustrating to have to hunt for them. So while I opportunistically used them when convenient it wasn’t frequent. Fast forward to now, there are enough of them around that I can pretty much always find one on the current block. Now I use them as my primary mode of transportation ever short distances.

OkGoDoIt 7y ago

I own both a bike and an e-scooter and one of the things I really like about my e-scooter is I can fold it up and bring it in with me to a restaurant or my office or wherever else I am going. A bike I have to find a place to lock it and pray it doesn’t get stolen, as has happened to me multiple times in the past. This isn’t necessarily applicable to a rental market, but as far as personal ownership the e-scooter is just vastly more convenient in a major city with high rates of bicycle theft.