5 ms·

Facebook is running anti-vax ads, despite its ban on vaccine misinformation

55 points by thinkcontext 7y ago

daenz 7y ago
Relevant information: >"Facebook does not have a policy that bans advertising on the basis that it expresses opposition to vaccines," a Facebook spokesperson said. "Our policy is to ban ads containing vaccine misinformation." The ad Buzzfeed thinks is in violation: >One ad reads, “Is the vaccine the best option? And if not, what is?” Another says, “Click below for a FREE guide for Pertussis which will include: Vaccine Controversy.” Seems pretty cut and dry to me. The ad doesn't contain misinformation, merely opposition. Somehow I can't help but feel like we're sliding down the slippery slope though.
- lokar 7y ago
  The site the ad links to contains the misinformation. It seems like that conforms with FB policy.
- eropple 7y ago
  > The ad doesn't contain misinformation, merely opposition. Can you show me a formulation of "vaccine opposition" that does not require misinformation to be credible?
  - daenz 7y ago
    Sure: there's the idea of opposing vaccines because you want the absolute option of bodily autonomy over what gets injected into your bloodstream.
    - colejohnson66 7y ago
      The thing about you deciding what goes into you is that it is harming other people. Your rights stop once you harm others.
      - daenz 7y ago
        That wasn't the point I was making, please don't strawman me. The GP asked for an argument against vaccination that didn't rely on misinformation.
  - mwfunk 7y ago
    Seriously. The use of the term "opposition" here makes it sound like vaccinations are things people can have subjective opinions about. It's like having a dissenting opinion on 1+1=2 or voicing ones opposition to the sky being being blue and expecting everyone to be cool with that. Except in the case of vaccinations, these dissenters cause people to freaking die, and not just themselves or their own. And their argument is literally never anything more than, "well, y'know, some people are saying vaccinations are bad, I hear. Some of them are even in my family or on TV or go to my church so there must be something to it!"
- bduerst 7y ago
  The ad's destination URL contains the misinformation. Agencies play this semantic cat and mouse game with policies that are clearly targeted at preventing this type of content from proliferating, so it's not as cut and dry as you believe it is.
  - daenz 7y ago
    The larger picture may not be cut and dry, but this example is. The wording of the policy is very clear, and so is the wording of the ads in question.
    - bduerst 7y ago
      No, it's not. An ad's destination page is subject to Facebooks advertising policy: >During the ad review process, we'll check your ad's images, text, targeting, and positioning, in addition to the content on your ad's landing page. Your ad may not be approved if the landing page content isn't fully functional, doesn't match the product/service promoted in your ad or doesn't fully comply with our Advertising Policies. https://www.facebook.com/policies/ads/ https://www.facebook.com/policies/ads/
      - daenz 7y ago
        Huh, I didn't know that strictly the same policies applied to both the ad content and the ad destination. What's your explanation for Facebook leaving up the ad and issuing the statement that they did then? It appears they are standing by their choice on some grounds, and I'm curious what your interpretation of that is.
- cogman10 7y ago
  > Our policy is to ban ads containing vaccine misinformation Well, ok, so the only ads they ban are ads that say "Vaccines cause autism!". How useful is that as a policy? By the same metric a "Find out the truth about the moon landing!" would contain no false information about the moon landing even though the link is chalk full of it. Has anyone ever seen or produced an ad that actually runs afoul of this policy? If not, it is a useless policy, they are still aiding the spread of misinformation on a very important health topic.
  - smt88 7y ago
    Facebook does this so often (lip service with no real practical effects) that we can't consider it to be helplessness anymore. A company so routinely ineffective at fixing its mistakes must be lying about actually believing they were mistakes.
munk-a 7y ago
This, along with political ads, is a pretty amazingly good example of how facebook was wrong - they can't deliver advertising to customers at higher efficacy and lower cost than traditional media... what they can do is fail to properly vet ads for cheaper than traditional media spends vetting ads. I feel like this problem should start the sounding of warning bells around the efficiencies tech companies create. A lot of good value is created in tech, but along with that value is the movement to accomplish a solution for most of the problem for far less of a cost. If you can managed to eschew portions of your product that are unimportant (creating a DB tuned to reading that does reading really well and slows way down during writes) then you might have the beginnings of a great business, but the portions of the feature set you're eschewing need to actually be optional. Building a peer to peer trading website without building in support for all those onerous requirements around preventing human trafficking and other black market dealings isn't a solid business - the government will shut you down and your product isn't groundbreaking and paradigm shifting - it's half-assed. I reeeeally strongly suspect that a lot of web advertisers are feeling the pain now that HUD has started watching web advertisements for housing discrimination, now that the impact of politcal ads is becoming accepted and now that slimy businesses are exploiting FUD to push homeopathy... Preventing these has always been a requirement in the field of marketing, and your business isn't disruptive and edgy because it ignores them - it's living on borrowed time until a huge lawsuit drives it out of business.
- deweller 7y ago
  Just because they fail to properly vet ads for cheaper than traditional media doesn't mean they can't still deliver advertising to customers at higher efficacy and lower cost than traditional media. The cost just might not be as low as they had hoped. I'd like to see some tech innovation around peer to peer governance and enforcement of rules. Government is going to struggle to keep up with the sheer volume of advertising on the web. Asking a central authority to police all of it is not a recipe for success. Can we incentivize consumers to enforce ad regulations in a meaningful way? That might lead to a better advertising world for all of us.
jp42 7y ago
What are the incentives or driving force behind anti-vaxxers? I am amazed why someone is putting money and efforts on anti-vaccination. Personally its hard to believe it become a big thing without some sort incentives/driving force.
- munk-a 7y ago
  A lot of people have fallen into the FUD wholesale and are resolute believers so it might be mostly driven by momentum at this point - but somewhere under all of that is a slimy snake-oil salesman who is raking in the money for sugar water... traditional medicine and such never take off unless someone can make a buck.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- rabidonrails 7y ago
  Here you go: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2019/10/15/fdc01078-c29c-11e9-b5e4-54aa56d5b7ce_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2019/10/15/fdc...
- sebasmurphy 7y ago
  I feel like Companies like Goop and other "natural" health companies profit from this stuff as a side-effect. Like who else could you market this type of crap to. https://shop.goop.com/shop/products/rose-quartz-bottle?taxon_id=1291&country=USA https://shop.goop.com/shop/products/rose-quartz-bottle?taxon...
  - happytoexplain 7y ago
    Ironically, I've seen a lot of people (including firsthand) who consider things like Goop to be "liberal" nonsense, yet consider vaccines dangerous because of the conspiracy/general-distrust-of-experts angles.
- munificent 7y ago
  As the article states, these anti-vax pamphlets suggest parents buy the advertisers natural remedy products instead.
r00fus 7y ago
Why are they allowed to profit from spreading misinformation without consequence?
- alanlovestea 7y ago
  On the flip side, do you want Facebook or any company to control what you can or can not say?
  - munk-a 7y ago
    I mean, it'd be best if the government did this and was held accountable in terms of censorship in all the normal ways they are - but Facebook decided to adopt the responsibility to be the one who needs to control it... so they made their own bed.
  - davidw 7y ago
    I think this is a more complex issue than some make it out to be. That said, if you walk into a restaurant and start yelling about something, they can absolutely kick you out, because it's a private company, not the government.
  - brianwawok 7y ago
    Do I want regulations that would prevent things that are illegal to say on one media form to apply to all? Sure. You can't just go buy a TV ad that says "blue cars cause cancer", knowing that it will drive business away from a guy you hate that makes blue cars. But I can go have that facebook ad up in 5 minutes. As part of living in a society, I am happy to cede some freedoms for a better world.
    - gortep 7y ago
      Is it illegal to discuss any danger of vaccines? Is it illegal to say that blue cars cause cancer on television? Should it be illegal to say that blue cars cause cancer on facebook? Should it be illegal to whisper to a friend that blue cars cause cancer? Should it be illegal to say things that are not true? What is true, then? Do you wish to cede your freedoms in service of a "better world" where saying untrue things is a punishable offense?
averros 7y ago
I didn't know that Facebook is a licensed medical organization which is legally allowed to offer medical advice in the form of selecting which medicine-related materials its users can see.</s> Really, people, if you want good info on vaccines, TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR. Facebook and other social networks should never be considered a source of reliable info on anything. Pretending otherwise is both foolish and increases moral hazard (not unlike people trusting mass media... basically, if some outlet gives you advice for "free", that advice is not in your best interest, period, - there is a reason why it is published, and your well-being is not that reason). Practically every piece of free content (authored by strangers) you read is some form of an "infomercial", be it scientists competing for attention of grantors, or quacks trying to sell you snake oil, or anything on the spectrum in between.

55 points by thinkcontext 7y ago

Relevant information: >"Facebook does not have a policy that bans advertising on the basis that it expresses opposition to vaccines," a Facebook spokesperson said. "Our policy is to ban ads containing vaccine misinformation." The ad Buzzfeed thinks is in violation: >One ad reads, “Is the vaccine the best option? And if not, what is?” Another says, “Click below for a FREE guide for Pertussis which will include: Vaccine Controversy.” Seems pretty cut and dry to me. The ad doesn't contain misinformation, merely opposition. Somehow I can't help but feel like we're sliding down the slippery slope though.

lokar 7y ago
The site the ad links to contains the misinformation. It seems like that conforms with FB policy.
eropple 7y ago
> The ad doesn't contain misinformation, merely opposition. Can you show me a formulation of "vaccine opposition" that does not require misinformation to be credible?
- daenz 7y ago
  Sure: there's the idea of opposing vaccines because you want the absolute option of bodily autonomy over what gets injected into your bloodstream.
  - colejohnson66 7y ago
    The thing about you deciding what goes into you is that it is harming other people. Your rights stop once you harm others.
    - daenz 7y ago
      That wasn't the point I was making, please don't strawman me. The GP asked for an argument against vaccination that didn't rely on misinformation.
- mwfunk 7y ago
  Seriously. The use of the term "opposition" here makes it sound like vaccinations are things people can have subjective opinions about. It's like having a dissenting opinion on 1+1=2 or voicing ones opposition to the sky being being blue and expecting everyone to be cool with that. Except in the case of vaccinations, these dissenters cause people to freaking die, and not just themselves or their own. And their argument is literally never anything more than, "well, y'know, some people are saying vaccinations are bad, I hear. Some of them are even in my family or on TV or go to my church so there must be something to it!"
bduerst 7y ago
The ad's destination URL contains the misinformation. Agencies play this semantic cat and mouse game with policies that are clearly targeted at preventing this type of content from proliferating, so it's not as cut and dry as you believe it is.
- daenz 7y ago
  The larger picture may not be cut and dry, but this example is. The wording of the policy is very clear, and so is the wording of the ads in question.
  - bduerst 7y ago
    No, it's not. An ad's destination page is subject to Facebooks advertising policy: >During the ad review process, we'll check your ad's images, text, targeting, and positioning, in addition to the content on your ad's landing page. Your ad may not be approved if the landing page content isn't fully functional, doesn't match the product/service promoted in your ad or doesn't fully comply with our Advertising Policies. https://www.facebook.com/policies/ads/ https://www.facebook.com/policies/ads/
    - daenz 7y ago
      Huh, I didn't know that strictly the same policies applied to both the ad content and the ad destination. What's your explanation for Facebook leaving up the ad and issuing the statement that they did then? It appears they are standing by their choice on some grounds, and I'm curious what your interpretation of that is.
cogman10 7y ago
> Our policy is to ban ads containing vaccine misinformation Well, ok, so the only ads they ban are ads that say "Vaccines cause autism!". How useful is that as a policy? By the same metric a "Find out the truth about the moon landing!" would contain no false information about the moon landing even though the link is chalk full of it. Has anyone ever seen or produced an ad that actually runs afoul of this policy? If not, it is a useless policy, they are still aiding the spread of misinformation on a very important health topic.
- smt88 7y ago
  Facebook does this so often (lip service with no real practical effects) that we can't consider it to be helplessness anymore. A company so routinely ineffective at fixing its mistakes must be lying about actually believing they were mistakes.

munk-a 7y ago

This, along with political ads, is a pretty amazingly good example of how facebook was wrong - they can't deliver advertising to customers at higher efficacy and lower cost than traditional media... what they can do is fail to properly vet ads for cheaper than traditional media spends vetting ads. I feel like this problem should start the sounding of warning bells around the efficiencies tech companies create. A lot of good value is created in tech, but along with that value is the movement to accomplish a solution for most of the problem for far less of a cost. If you can managed to eschew portions of your product that are unimportant (creating a DB tuned to reading that does reading really well and slows way down during writes) then you might have the beginnings of a great business, but the portions of the feature set you're eschewing need to actually be optional. Building a peer to peer trading website without building in support for all those onerous requirements around preventing human trafficking and other black market dealings isn't a solid business - the government will shut you down and your product isn't groundbreaking and paradigm shifting - it's half-assed. I reeeeally strongly suspect that a lot of web advertisers are feeling the pain now that HUD has started watching web advertisements for housing discrimination, now that the impact of politcal ads is becoming accepted and now that slimy businesses are exploiting FUD to push homeopathy... Preventing these has always been a requirement in the field of marketing, and your business isn't disruptive and edgy because it ignores them - it's living on borrowed time until a huge lawsuit drives it out of business.

deweller 7y ago
Just because they fail to properly vet ads for cheaper than traditional media doesn't mean they can't still deliver advertising to customers at higher efficacy and lower cost than traditional media. The cost just might not be as low as they had hoped. I'd like to see some tech innovation around peer to peer governance and enforcement of rules. Government is going to struggle to keep up with the sheer volume of advertising on the web. Asking a central authority to police all of it is not a recipe for success. Can we incentivize consumers to enforce ad regulations in a meaningful way? That might lead to a better advertising world for all of us.

jp42 7y ago

What are the incentives or driving force behind anti-vaxxers? I am amazed why someone is putting money and efforts on anti-vaccination. Personally its hard to believe it become a big thing without some sort incentives/driving force.

munk-a 7y ago
A lot of people have fallen into the FUD wholesale and are resolute believers so it might be mostly driven by momentum at this point - but somewhere under all of that is a slimy snake-oil salesman who is raking in the money for sugar water... traditional medicine and such never take off unless someone can make a buck.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rabidonrails 7y ago
Here you go: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2019/10/15/fdc01078-c29c-11e9-b5e4-54aa56d5b7ce_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2019/10/15/fdc...
sebasmurphy 7y ago
I feel like Companies like Goop and other "natural" health companies profit from this stuff as a side-effect. Like who else could you market this type of crap to. https://shop.goop.com/shop/products/rose-quartz-bottle?taxon_id=1291&country=USA https://shop.goop.com/shop/products/rose-quartz-bottle?taxon...
- happytoexplain 7y ago
  Ironically, I've seen a lot of people (including firsthand) who consider things like Goop to be "liberal" nonsense, yet consider vaccines dangerous because of the conspiracy/general-distrust-of-experts angles.
munificent 7y ago
As the article states, these anti-vax pamphlets suggest parents buy the advertisers natural remedy products instead.

r00fus 7y ago

Why are they allowed to profit from spreading misinformation without consequence?

alanlovestea 7y ago
On the flip side, do you want Facebook or any company to control what you can or can not say?
- munk-a 7y ago
  I mean, it'd be best if the government did this and was held accountable in terms of censorship in all the normal ways they are - but Facebook decided to adopt the responsibility to be the one who needs to control it... so they made their own bed.
- davidw 7y ago
  I think this is a more complex issue than some make it out to be. That said, if you walk into a restaurant and start yelling about something, they can absolutely kick you out, because it's a private company, not the government.
- brianwawok 7y ago
  Do I want regulations that would prevent things that are illegal to say on one media form to apply to all? Sure. You can't just go buy a TV ad that says "blue cars cause cancer", knowing that it will drive business away from a guy you hate that makes blue cars. But I can go have that facebook ad up in 5 minutes. As part of living in a society, I am happy to cede some freedoms for a better world.
  - gortep 7y ago
    Is it illegal to discuss any danger of vaccines? Is it illegal to say that blue cars cause cancer on television? Should it be illegal to say that blue cars cause cancer on facebook? Should it be illegal to whisper to a friend that blue cars cause cancer? Should it be illegal to say things that are not true? What is true, then? Do you wish to cede your freedoms in service of a "better world" where saying untrue things is a punishable offense?

averros 7y ago

I didn't know that Facebook is a licensed medical organization which is legally allowed to offer medical advice in the form of selecting which medicine-related materials its users can see.</s> Really, people, if you want good info on vaccines, TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR. Facebook and other social networks should never be considered a source of reliable info on anything. Pretending otherwise is both foolish and increases moral hazard (not unlike people trusting mass media... basically, if some outlet gives you advice for "free", that advice is not in your best interest, period, - there is a reason why it is published, and your well-being is not that reason). Practically every piece of free content (authored by strangers) you read is some form of an "infomercial", be it scientists competing for attention of grantors, or quacks trying to sell you snake oil, or anything on the spectrum in between.