6 ms·

I was at a holiday party and some guy was telling me all about the exciting life extension breakthroughs he was reading about in mass media. I tried to explain

I was at a holiday party and some guy was telling me all about the exciting life extension breakthroughs he was reading about in mass media. I tried to explain that, while exciting, what works in mice models is highly unlikely to directly scale into humans and that making progress against aging is very probably a "wicked" problem. I pointed out how many headlines we saw in the 80s about a "cure" for cancer being just around the corner. Yet, cancer turned out to be a "wicked" problem. We've made exciting progress and reduced cancer mortality for nearly 30% in the last 25 years but there's been no "cure". Sadly, no one wants to hear that.

phkahler 7y ago
>> Sadly, no one wants to hear that. There are also people who dont want to hear that change may be possible.
seer 7y ago
There's some really exciting research going on around ageing (and cancer as they are quite related) recently. I'm someone very far outside the field, but as far as I can tell we're starting to understand cancer (and ageing) on a much deeper molecular machinery kind of level. Combined with epigenetics it really does look quite doable to extend lifespans of humans as well. I mean there have been techniques known for millennia - fasting, exercise, saunas etc. What's changing now is that we're starting to understand _how_ those things are actually working under the hood, not just spraying chemicals and hoping something changes. At least that's what I've gathered reading through https://lifespanbook.com/faq/ https://lifespanbook.com/faq/
- evo_9 7y ago
  Great read. The combination of metformin, revaratrol and NMN is quite something. Add fasting and an intense workouts and it’s amazing how much you can impact your wellness. I recently unretired from the over 40 hockey league i’ve played in the past 8 years and rejoined the top A league playing against 20 year olds... anecdotal sure... but then again so are those sets of 30-40 pull-ups I do in my workout multiple times a week... incidentally in my 30s I could only do 15 pull-ups... been steadily increasing the last few years much to the surprise of my 20 year old teammates I workout with. I’m currently 52 and look mid 30s and have taken supplements for nearly 10 years to affect aging.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - UncleOxidant 7y ago
    Which supplements are you taking? NMN? Niagen?
    - evo_9 7y ago
      1 gram of NMN, metformin and resveratrol. Beyond that I take other things including carbon 60. Those are the most exotic items; the rest are your usual items such as fish-oil, krill oil, multi-vitiman most of which I tuned from my Inside-Tracker.com blood results. I also have the right genetics; aka longevity gene(s), Ashkenazi Jew markers, etc and my farther is in his upper 80's; his mother lived to 98. I don't want to claim that it's any one thing. I'm sure it's everything. The Tabata style sprinting 2-3 days a week, the hour+ workouts minimum of 5 days a week, the 16/8 fasting, the hockey/cryotherapy-like effects of being cold and working out/aerobic exhaustion of being on the ice or skating outside etc. And of course diet... I eat much much less than most people I know (big fan of Paleo menu by Green-Chef). The way I see it is there are studies around NMN, metformin and resveratrol right now; let's say in 10 years they all prove they slow aging/extend life... to me it's worth the cost to take these now and bet on a positive outcome. If some of these studies don't pan out, so it goes, but so far it seems like it's working out pretty well if my increasingly annoyed friends are any indication.
      - lossolo 7y ago
        Does your father looks a lot younger too? My father is in his mid 50s and he looks 40. I am in my mid 30s and I look younger too. This is genetics obviously. I am also doing fasting 16/8 and eat less than most people. It's possible that those supplements have 0 effects and it's all just genetics.
        evo_9 7y ago
        Not really but he smoked for 40 years before quitting around age 55. Or it’s possible the preliminary results are correct.
evo_9 7y ago
Sadly this thinking is slowing down real scientific progress in the very real race to cure aging.
jerf 7y ago
When you see an article on HN about how someone took some code, profiled it, and increased its speed by 10 times, I think it's tempting to credit virtue to the person who sped the code up. But I think you also have to remember that the only reason you could speed up the code by 10 times in the first place is that the original code left that much on the table. It isn't just that there is a person who was skilled enough to speed the code up, it is that somebody else left the opportunity behind in the first place. For similar reasons, I find it quite likely to be engineering-meaningless [1] when someone takes a life form that lives for a 2-3 weeks and extends that by a factor of 5. We humans have the "live for fifteen weeks" problem solved. Optimization being what it is, it is very likely that whatever that improvement is already effectively exists in us. (Possibly not directly, possibly through some other mechanism that doesn't completely match, but it's probably done.) It is, unfortunately, much less impressive to "optimize" an organism that has left that much on the table. Improve an elephant's lifespan by 50% with an intervention when they're already fully-grown and I'll really take notice. Unfortunately, there's all kinds of reasons why that's hard.... [1]: Contrast with meaningful to science. There's nothing wrong with studying this sort of thing as steps to both eventually treating aging, and just plain scientific understanding of the world, in the mean time. But something can be scientifically useful, and even perhaps someday eventually be useful to engineering through its contribution to a dozen other discoveries, while being "engineering-useless" today. Remember the context we're speaking in is in being excited about all the longevity news in the media and to hope that maybe it'll be ready by the time we personally need it.
- reubenswartz 7y ago
  This is a very important point. Human lifespan is already an outlier compared to our primate cousins and other creatures of similar (or even larger size). I'm sure there's plenty of room for "optimization", but it's not as easy as it is with nematodes or mice, which also get a lot of attention in the general science media.
- HSO 7y ago
  By the same token, there are animals who have the „live for 400 years“ problem solved so there must be sth left on the table yes? Other animals have the „regenerate this body part“ problem solved, same.

phkahler 7y ago

>> Sadly, no one wants to hear that. There are also people who dont want to hear that change may be possible.

seer 7y ago

There's some really exciting research going on around ageing (and cancer as they are quite related) recently. I'm someone very far outside the field, but as far as I can tell we're starting to understand cancer (and ageing) on a much deeper molecular machinery kind of level. Combined with epigenetics it really does look quite doable to extend lifespans of humans as well. I mean there have been techniques known for millennia - fasting, exercise, saunas etc. What's changing now is that we're starting to understand _how_ those things are actually working under the hood, not just spraying chemicals and hoping something changes. At least that's what I've gathered reading through https://lifespanbook.com/faq/ https://lifespanbook.com/faq/

evo_9 7y ago
Great read. The combination of metformin, revaratrol and NMN is quite something. Add fasting and an intense workouts and it’s amazing how much you can impact your wellness. I recently unretired from the over 40 hockey league i’ve played in the past 8 years and rejoined the top A league playing against 20 year olds... anecdotal sure... but then again so are those sets of 30-40 pull-ups I do in my workout multiple times a week... incidentally in my 30s I could only do 15 pull-ups... been steadily increasing the last few years much to the surprise of my 20 year old teammates I workout with. I’m currently 52 and look mid 30s and have taken supplements for nearly 10 years to affect aging.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- UncleOxidant 7y ago
  Which supplements are you taking? NMN? Niagen?
  - evo_9 7y ago
    1 gram of NMN, metformin and resveratrol. Beyond that I take other things including carbon 60. Those are the most exotic items; the rest are your usual items such as fish-oil, krill oil, multi-vitiman most of which I tuned from my Inside-Tracker.com blood results. I also have the right genetics; aka longevity gene(s), Ashkenazi Jew markers, etc and my farther is in his upper 80's; his mother lived to 98. I don't want to claim that it's any one thing. I'm sure it's everything. The Tabata style sprinting 2-3 days a week, the hour+ workouts minimum of 5 days a week, the 16/8 fasting, the hockey/cryotherapy-like effects of being cold and working out/aerobic exhaustion of being on the ice or skating outside etc. And of course diet... I eat much much less than most people I know (big fan of Paleo menu by Green-Chef). The way I see it is there are studies around NMN, metformin and resveratrol right now; let's say in 10 years they all prove they slow aging/extend life... to me it's worth the cost to take these now and bet on a positive outcome. If some of these studies don't pan out, so it goes, but so far it seems like it's working out pretty well if my increasingly annoyed friends are any indication.
    - lossolo 7y ago
      Does your father looks a lot younger too? My father is in his mid 50s and he looks 40. I am in my mid 30s and I look younger too. This is genetics obviously. I am also doing fasting 16/8 and eat less than most people. It's possible that those supplements have 0 effects and it's all just genetics.
      - evo_9 7y ago
        Not really but he smoked for 40 years before quitting around age 55. Or it’s possible the preliminary results are correct.

evo_9 7y ago

Sadly this thinking is slowing down real scientific progress in the very real race to cure aging.

jerf 7y ago

When you see an article on HN about how someone took some code, profiled it, and increased its speed by 10 times, I think it's tempting to credit virtue to the person who sped the code up. But I think you also have to remember that the only reason you could speed up the code by 10 times in the first place is that the original code left that much on the table. It isn't just that there is a person who was skilled enough to speed the code up, it is that somebody else left the opportunity behind in the first place. For similar reasons, I find it quite likely to be engineering-meaningless [1] when someone takes a life form that lives for a 2-3 weeks and extends that by a factor of 5. We humans have the "live for fifteen weeks" problem solved. Optimization being what it is, it is very likely that whatever that improvement is already effectively exists in us. (Possibly not directly, possibly through some other mechanism that doesn't completely match, but it's probably done.) It is, unfortunately, much less impressive to "optimize" an organism that has left that much on the table. Improve an elephant's lifespan by 50% with an intervention when they're already fully-grown and I'll really take notice. Unfortunately, there's all kinds of reasons why that's hard.... [1]: Contrast with meaningful to science. There's nothing wrong with studying this sort of thing as steps to both eventually treating aging, and just plain scientific understanding of the world, in the mean time. But something can be scientifically useful, and even perhaps someday eventually be useful to engineering through its contribution to a dozen other discoveries, while being "engineering-useless" today. Remember the context we're speaking in is in being excited about all the longevity news in the media and to hope that maybe it'll be ready by the time we personally need it.

reubenswartz 7y ago
This is a very important point. Human lifespan is already an outlier compared to our primate cousins and other creatures of similar (or even larger size). I'm sure there's plenty of room for "optimization", but it's not as easy as it is with nematodes or mice, which also get a lot of attention in the general science media.
HSO 7y ago
By the same token, there are animals who have the „live for 400 years“ problem solved so there must be sth left on the table yes? Other animals have the „regenerate this body part“ problem solved, same.