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I think we cheapen the word "sexual assault" when we use it like this. Asimov was not Harvey Weinstein, and a unwelcome pinch on the butt is not rape.

ComputerGuru 7y ago
What about fondling of breasts against their owner’s will?
- coldtea 7y ago
  Would we call fondling male breasts (a "nipple twister" the internet informs me is called) or a slap on their ass (butt slapping, common sometimes after a sport game) against their owner’s will, a sexual assault (much less rape)? What if it had been performed by a stronger man to another weaker man, but in some casual setting? How serious would we consider it, and how "traumatized" we would consider the person after the incident? (Some would call it "very serious". But then again there are people who suffer trauma over a wrong order at Starbucks). At best most people would call it a tasteless antic or light bullying or crappy behavior (like farting in public)...
  - fatbird 7y ago
    A better example is "tapping": a quick backhand to a male's crotch, trying to hit the testicles hard enough to hurt but not hard enough to incapacitate. Riot Games' COO, Scott Gelb, got two months of unpaid leave after he "repeatedly touched subordinates’ balls or butt or farted in their faces" [0]. I would absolutely describe that as sexual assault; deliberately, just to emphasize that playful male aggression crosses lines that absolutely should not be crossed, including in the workplace. Touch my balls without my consent, and I won't care whether you're horsing around or making an awkward pass. It's assault, and it's sexual. It doesn't cheapen other kinds of sexual assault to draw clear boundaries. [0] https://kotaku.com/top-riot-executive-suspended-without-pay-following-inve-1831084598 https://kotaku.com/top-riot-executive-suspended-without-pay-...
kangnkodos 7y ago
So, you're saying just a little pinch is not that bad? Next time you're at a conference, try pinching a woman's butt in the middle of a crowded room. Let me know how that works out for you.
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claudiawerner 7y ago
The fact that two acts that differ in severity can be considered under the same umbrella does not cheapen the term - everybody recognizes the matter of scale, concrete action and intention that is different in both figures. An unwelcome pinch on the butt isn't rape - but it could be sexual assault. I don't think anybody argued that it is rape.
davvolun 7y ago
Did you READ the article? > The damage he caused was inseparable from his power. In general, Asimov chose targets who were unlikely to protest directly, such as fans and secretaries, and spared women whom he saw as professionally useful. There were exceptions—he chased the editor Cele Goldsmith around her desk—but he preferred to focus on women who were more vulnerable, which inevitably raises the issue of mentorship. > Yet many of these encounters were clearly nonconsensual. When the author Frederik Pohl questioned his tendency to touch women “in a fairly fondling way,” Asimov replied, “It’s like the old saying. You get slapped a lot, but you get laid a lot, too.” He's deliberately finding vulnerable women -- who may be forced to laugh off or allow his unwanted advances in order to keep their jobs (keep in mind the time period also -- women even having some of these jobs was something special in itself), and he's doing it to, ultimately, get sex. That may not quite be the definition of rape, but it certainly isn't "a[n] unwelcome pinch on the butt." Sounds to me like Asimov wasn't that far off from Weinstein -- keep in mind for every accusation of rape Weinstein is facing, there were dozens if not hundreds of women who claim lesser degrees of inappropriate actions. It's more likely that the women who would today, in the #metoo era, have reported legal sexual assault or rape, were silenced back then -- I can't imagine we will ever know though; maybe he stopped at just "pinches on the butt," but I doubt it.

ComputerGuru 7y ago

What about fondling of breasts against their owner’s will?

coldtea 7y ago
Would we call fondling male breasts (a "nipple twister" the internet informs me is called) or a slap on their ass (butt slapping, common sometimes after a sport game) against their owner’s will, a sexual assault (much less rape)? What if it had been performed by a stronger man to another weaker man, but in some casual setting? How serious would we consider it, and how "traumatized" we would consider the person after the incident? (Some would call it "very serious". But then again there are people who suffer trauma over a wrong order at Starbucks). At best most people would call it a tasteless antic or light bullying or crappy behavior (like farting in public)...
- fatbird 7y ago
  A better example is "tapping": a quick backhand to a male's crotch, trying to hit the testicles hard enough to hurt but not hard enough to incapacitate. Riot Games' COO, Scott Gelb, got two months of unpaid leave after he "repeatedly touched subordinates’ balls or butt or farted in their faces" [0]. I would absolutely describe that as sexual assault; deliberately, just to emphasize that playful male aggression crosses lines that absolutely should not be crossed, including in the workplace. Touch my balls without my consent, and I won't care whether you're horsing around or making an awkward pass. It's assault, and it's sexual. It doesn't cheapen other kinds of sexual assault to draw clear boundaries. [0] https://kotaku.com/top-riot-executive-suspended-without-pay-following-inve-1831084598 https://kotaku.com/top-riot-executive-suspended-without-pay-...

kangnkodos 7y ago

So, you're saying just a little pinch is not that bad? Next time you're at a conference, try pinching a woman's butt in the middle of a crowded room. Let me know how that works out for you.

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claudiawerner 7y ago

The fact that two acts that differ in severity can be considered under the same umbrella does not cheapen the term - everybody recognizes the matter of scale, concrete action and intention that is different in both figures. An unwelcome pinch on the butt isn't rape - but it could be sexual assault. I don't think anybody argued that it is rape.

davvolun 7y ago

Did you READ the article? > The damage he caused was inseparable from his power. In general, Asimov chose targets who were unlikely to protest directly, such as fans and secretaries, and spared women whom he saw as professionally useful. There were exceptions—he chased the editor Cele Goldsmith around her desk—but he preferred to focus on women who were more vulnerable, which inevitably raises the issue of mentorship. > Yet many of these encounters were clearly nonconsensual. When the author Frederik Pohl questioned his tendency to touch women “in a fairly fondling way,” Asimov replied, “It’s like the old saying. You get slapped a lot, but you get laid a lot, too.” He's deliberately finding vulnerable women -- who may be forced to laugh off or allow his unwanted advances in order to keep their jobs (keep in mind the time period also -- women even having some of these jobs was something special in itself), and he's doing it to, ultimately, get sex. That may not quite be the definition of rape, but it certainly isn't "a[n] unwelcome pinch on the butt." Sounds to me like Asimov wasn't that far off from Weinstein -- keep in mind for every accusation of rape Weinstein is facing, there were dozens if not hundreds of women who claim lesser degrees of inappropriate actions. It's more likely that the women who would today, in the #metoo era, have reported legal sexual assault or rape, were silenced back then -- I can't imagine we will ever know though; maybe he stopped at just "pinches on the butt," but I doubt it.