5 ms·

Well his personal issues with women definitely are apparent in his work. His female characters are often shrieking ninnies. Also I don't think anyone but an ac

Well his personal issues with women definitely are apparent in his work. His female characters are often shrieking ninnies. Also I don't think anyone but an academic will be reading his work in a few hundred years. As much as I enjoy his ideas and his easy style he is actually mediocre.

lawlessone 7y ago
I hadn't noticed this before about his female characters.. and now i can't unotice it that you have mentioned it
- scandox 7y ago
  You know it was quite common in those days for Pulp Sci Fi...but for example the character of Jezebel Baley in The Caves of Steel is so bad that it almost suggests actual hatred on the part of the author.... certainly contempt.
  - gerikson 7y ago
    If you choose to name your character Jezebel[1] you might have an ulterior motive... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezebel#Cultural_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezebel#Cultural_symbol EDIT on the other hand, from the same page - > In his two-volume Guide to the Bible (1967 and 1969), Isaac Asimov describes Jezebel's last act: dressing in all her finery, make-up, and jewelry, as deliberately symbolic, indicating her dignity, royal status, and determination to go out of this life as a queen.
    - ethanbond 7y ago
      The characters in the book discuss the symbolism of her name. She goes by "Jessie" because she does not want to identify with Jezebel. Apparently some commenters here would have us believe that if there's a highly emotional woman, it's because the author hates women. Jezebel's/Jessie's husband and main character of Caves of Steel, Elijah, is himself kind of an anxious headstrong type who's wrong more often than he's right. Of course, this indicates with high certainty that Asimov also hates men. Edit: Also worth noting that Bliss/Gaia in Foundation is pretty much the most powerful character in the Foundation universe. Mayor Branno, woman mayor of the First Foundation, is also revered as an incredibly capable and bold leader by all accounts. Edit 2: And not to mention the young girl taken from Solaria, who is the only character to potentially rival Bliss. What a laughable claim that all the women in Asimov’s stories are weak or hysterical.
      - gerikson 7y ago
        Thanks for the expansion. I read The Caves of Steel a loooong time ago, and in translation. Elijah and Jezebel - a match made in heaven...
      - scandox 7y ago
        Yes they discuss her name. But if you recall Jessie liked her name and enjoyed the secret thrill of its salacious implication exactly because she is quite a square in real life. However Elijah one day reads the Bible and gives her the more correct interpretation of Jezebel's behaviour as that of a woman protecting her interests and not at all a harlot. This greatly upsets Jessie because it robs her of that secret thrill. She then never uses the full name again. Elijah often regrets this. Despite its intricacies I found this particular part of their marital back story to be totally unconvincing and ineffective. Sorry Isaac.
kabacha 7y ago
> Also I don't think anyone but an academic will be reading his work in a few hundred years. As much as I enjoy his ideas and his easy style he is actually mediocre. I don't like to point out and say people's opinions are wrong but The Embire series are cornerstone of science fiction writing and will surely be read in the future. I can't imagine someone studying the history of scifi literature and skipping Asimov at any point in time.
- scandox 7y ago
  You said it: studying. That's why I say an Academic might be reading it. Some work becomes the preserve of specialists and other work continues to be read by people who love reading. We still read Dickens. Some of that work is almost 200 years old.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    He said it, but meant reading. Regular fans will continue to read Asimov, as they do today, 70+ years after some books where published. In fact, there is (was?) a TV series coming up on Foundation as well...
    - watwut 7y ago
      Realistically, very few books keep being read for hundreds years and those who do typically strongly influenced politics or art or because they have contemporary ideological message (teaching kids values and political attitudes we want them to get). Dickens is not read just because it was fun. Asimov is more in the "for fun" category. They are creative, but you must avoid thinking deeper about those societies and people in them - it breaks those books. So while it definitely plays role in sci-fi history, it is replaceable by next fun thing (Harry Potter or whatever).
      - coldtea 7y ago
        >Realistically, very few books keep being read for hundreds years Considering his first stories came around 1930 iirc, his books are already close to the "hundred years" mark, and still read, so we're past wondering about that... People might not read Tom Wolf ('The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test' anyone?) but they'll sure keep reading Asimov and Clarke and Dick and co for a good while...
coldtea 7y ago
>Also I don't think anyone but an academic will be reading his work in a few hundred years. As much as I enjoy his ideas and his easy style he is actually mediocre. While I don't agree 100%, that never hurt any artist's commercial success or fan following... In any case, for the sci-fi field he's one of the classics. Most others in the genre weren't exactly subtle deep literature either, it's the ideas and sci-fi exploration of them that count.
dep_b 7y ago
> Well his personal issues with women definitely are apparent in his work. His female characters are often shrieking ninnies. Het also used the word "gay" as simply meaning happy in the Foundation series. Because it's written in the 50's. Remember all of those face slaps to calm down hysterical women you saw up til the 80's in movies? When I see it now I think "waaaaaaaaat" but it was a normal stereotype back then.
- tommypalm 7y ago
  IIRC he also used "queer" to describe things as strange. I listened to some audiobooks of his works and it always threw me off.
  - ComputerGuru 7y ago
    Queer has always first and foremost meant “strange” or “odd” - “How queer!” was a common refrain in all the literature I’ve read dating back more than a couple of decades.
phonon 7y ago
Susan Calvin????????
8bitsrule 7y ago
>His female characters are often shrieking ninnies. I don't recall his works. But review the US family TV shows from the 1950s and 1960s and see the 'fond, goofy' portrayal of women -- it was everywhere. Similarly, many cartoons of that era ... shown across the nation in theatres ... cannot be seen anymore. The level of thick-headed, cloddish insensitivity was pervasive. We've changed as a culture in the US, and I'm grateful.

lawlessone 7y ago

I hadn't noticed this before about his female characters.. and now i can't unotice it that you have mentioned it

scandox 7y ago
You know it was quite common in those days for Pulp Sci Fi...but for example the character of Jezebel Baley in The Caves of Steel is so bad that it almost suggests actual hatred on the part of the author.... certainly contempt.
- gerikson 7y ago
  If you choose to name your character Jezebel[1] you might have an ulterior motive... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezebel#Cultural_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezebel#Cultural_symbol EDIT on the other hand, from the same page - > In his two-volume Guide to the Bible (1967 and 1969), Isaac Asimov describes Jezebel's last act: dressing in all her finery, make-up, and jewelry, as deliberately symbolic, indicating her dignity, royal status, and determination to go out of this life as a queen.
  - ethanbond 7y ago
    The characters in the book discuss the symbolism of her name. She goes by "Jessie" because she does not want to identify with Jezebel. Apparently some commenters here would have us believe that if there's a highly emotional woman, it's because the author hates women. Jezebel's/Jessie's husband and main character of Caves of Steel, Elijah, is himself kind of an anxious headstrong type who's wrong more often than he's right. Of course, this indicates with high certainty that Asimov also hates men. Edit: Also worth noting that Bliss/Gaia in Foundation is pretty much the most powerful character in the Foundation universe. Mayor Branno, woman mayor of the First Foundation, is also revered as an incredibly capable and bold leader by all accounts. Edit 2: And not to mention the young girl taken from Solaria, who is the only character to potentially rival Bliss. What a laughable claim that all the women in Asimov’s stories are weak or hysterical.
    - gerikson 7y ago
      Thanks for the expansion. I read The Caves of Steel a loooong time ago, and in translation. Elijah and Jezebel - a match made in heaven...
    - scandox 7y ago
      Yes they discuss her name. But if you recall Jessie liked her name and enjoyed the secret thrill of its salacious implication exactly because she is quite a square in real life. However Elijah one day reads the Bible and gives her the more correct interpretation of Jezebel's behaviour as that of a woman protecting her interests and not at all a harlot. This greatly upsets Jessie because it robs her of that secret thrill. She then never uses the full name again. Elijah often regrets this. Despite its intricacies I found this particular part of their marital back story to be totally unconvincing and ineffective. Sorry Isaac.

kabacha 7y ago

> Also I don't think anyone but an academic will be reading his work in a few hundred years. As much as I enjoy his ideas and his easy style he is actually mediocre. I don't like to point out and say people's opinions are wrong but The Embire series are cornerstone of science fiction writing and will surely be read in the future. I can't imagine someone studying the history of scifi literature and skipping Asimov at any point in time.

scandox 7y ago
You said it: studying. That's why I say an Academic might be reading it. Some work becomes the preserve of specialists and other work continues to be read by people who love reading. We still read Dickens. Some of that work is almost 200 years old.
- coldtea 7y ago
  He said it, but meant reading. Regular fans will continue to read Asimov, as they do today, 70+ years after some books where published. In fact, there is (was?) a TV series coming up on Foundation as well...
  - watwut 7y ago
    Realistically, very few books keep being read for hundreds years and those who do typically strongly influenced politics or art or because they have contemporary ideological message (teaching kids values and political attitudes we want them to get). Dickens is not read just because it was fun. Asimov is more in the "for fun" category. They are creative, but you must avoid thinking deeper about those societies and people in them - it breaks those books. So while it definitely plays role in sci-fi history, it is replaceable by next fun thing (Harry Potter or whatever).
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Realistically, very few books keep being read for hundreds years Considering his first stories came around 1930 iirc, his books are already close to the "hundred years" mark, and still read, so we're past wondering about that... People might not read Tom Wolf ('The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test' anyone?) but they'll sure keep reading Asimov and Clarke and Dick and co for a good while...

coldtea 7y ago

>Also I don't think anyone but an academic will be reading his work in a few hundred years. As much as I enjoy his ideas and his easy style he is actually mediocre. While I don't agree 100%, that never hurt any artist's commercial success or fan following... In any case, for the sci-fi field he's one of the classics. Most others in the genre weren't exactly subtle deep literature either, it's the ideas and sci-fi exploration of them that count.

dep_b 7y ago

> Well his personal issues with women definitely are apparent in his work. His female characters are often shrieking ninnies. Het also used the word "gay" as simply meaning happy in the Foundation series. Because it's written in the 50's. Remember all of those face slaps to calm down hysterical women you saw up til the 80's in movies? When I see it now I think "waaaaaaaaat" but it was a normal stereotype back then.

tommypalm 7y ago
IIRC he also used "queer" to describe things as strange. I listened to some audiobooks of his works and it always threw me off.
- ComputerGuru 7y ago
  Queer has always first and foremost meant “strange” or “odd” - “How queer!” was a common refrain in all the literature I’ve read dating back more than a couple of decades.

phonon 7y ago

Susan Calvin????????

8bitsrule 7y ago

>His female characters are often shrieking ninnies. I don't recall his works. But review the US family TV shows from the 1950s and 1960s and see the 'fond, goofy' portrayal of women -- it was everywhere. Similarly, many cartoons of that era ... shown across the nation in theatres ... cannot be seen anymore. The level of thick-headed, cloddish insensitivity was pervasive. We've changed as a culture in the US, and I'm grateful.