6 ms·

> idk what to do about all this; it's pretty easy for me to pass on rereading Asimov or MZB anyhow. His books don't become worse because of alleged bad behavio

> idk what to do about all this; it's pretty easy for me to pass on rereading Asimov or MZB anyhow. His books don't become worse because of alleged bad behaviour.

djur 7y ago
If the voice of an author can be heard through their writing, the act of reading can be affected by one's understanding of the author. "Death of the author" may be a useful critical technique but it's not the way most people emotionally or intellectually connect with art. Having known this about Asimov for quite some time, it hasn't kept me from enjoying that of his work I really like, but it has somewhat dulled my enjoyment of him overall as an author. In particular, although it's never been a favorite of mine anyway, I can't see myself being able to avoid noticing that _Foundation's Edge_ has a plotline that pairs off a middle-aged professor with a young, pretty, sexually open-minded woman who is "bottom heavy".
- Rerarom 7y ago
  Interesting how Robot/Foundation novels from the 1980s are more sexual than earlier ones, like with Dune novels from the 1980s.
- krapp 7y ago
  I really enjoy the concepts in H.P. Lovecraft's mythos, particularly where horror intersects with science fiction, but I also enjoy it a lot less after learning about his rabid antisemitic and racist views[0], which were extreme even for the time. I also used to like Piers Anthony's books when I was young, and too naive to pick up on how much the author seemed to like writing about little girls panties and fetishizing pedophilia[1]. Some people can ignore the problematic elements, and some can't. You don't have to read The Shadow Over Innsmouth as metaphor for race mixing, but once you know it's there, you can't unknow it. [0]https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/ https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supre... [1]https://litreactor.com/columns/themes-of-pedophilia-in-the-works-of-piers-anthony https://litreactor.com/columns/themes-of-pedophilia-in-the-w...
hartror 7y ago
The philosophy you are espousing is known in literary theory as "Death of the Author". > argues against the method of reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity to distill meaning from the author's work. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author I recommend Lindsay Ellis' video on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGn9x4-Y_7A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGn9x4-Y_7A Many of the golden age authors rage from "just" problematic like Asimov to a lot worse (see for more: http://www.jasonsanford.com/blog/2018/2/golden-age-sf-not-golden-everyone http://www.jasonsanford.com/blog/2018/2/golden-age-sf-not-go...). I still read these authors but I for one cannot help see the author in their books, and knowledge of their actions certainly influences how I interpret these books. I therefore don't believe in Death of the Author.
- kd5bjo 7y ago
  >I for one cannot help see the author in their books, and knowledge of their actions certainly influences how I interpret these books. This is part of the reason why I avoid reading about authors. Like the practice of symphonies doing auditions blind in order to avoid bias, I don't want my personal opinions of an author's life to taint my evaluation of their work.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  > The philosophy you are espousing is known in literary theory as "Death of the Author". No, it's not. I'm not talking about literary criticism or text interpretation. I'm talking about reading books for fun.
  - Angostura 7y ago
    In that case, I would think that reading books by a particular author could become "less fun" once you know about their behaviour. In the same way, I used to have some Rolf Harris novelty songs on my iPod playlist for the kids - and sone Gary Glitter. Listening to those songs once they were convicted, certainly became "less fun".
    - 7y ago
TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
They do. His female characters might as well have been written by an adolescent. He's hardly unique in that. MZB's Mists of Avalon has similar issues from a different gender perspective. Asimov looks especially crude now, with the distance of a few decades. I wouldn't be surprised if more recent fiction suffers a similar reassessment in time. SF is rarely character-led and it may be optimistic to expect depth or nuance from it. Character design is more likely to be an aspect of fan service - give the readers a fantasy they can identify with, maybe add some flaws for spice - and not so much an opportunity for self-reflection.
- neiman 7y ago
  > SF is rarely character-led and it may be optimistic to expect depth or nuance from it. I really don't think it's true anymore, see all Hugo award SF nominees and winners from the past few years. They are all character-led.
  - Jaruzel 7y ago
    Everything these days is people-orientated. The rise and rise of reality TV and social media is testament to that.
    - Ar-Curunir 7y ago
      Mate, everything throughout history has been people-oriented. Almost every famous story throughout history has had a main character, because that's what humans find easiest to identify with: other people.
      - keiferski 7y ago
        You are confusing 'character-led' with 'includes characters.' Plenty of stories are primarily about an abstract idea, place, or ethical lesson and the characters only exist to explain the ideas or move the plot along. This is in contrast to 'character-led' fiction, in which the primary focus is the character themselves and their development.
swiley 7y ago
IMO: his later books are pretty weird and have a lot of sexual themes that I personally don’t like. His early stuff is still absolutely fantastic though.
DagAgren 7y ago
No, they were always bad. But more importantly, his behaviour kept others out of the field. It stopped them having their voice heard. His fame came at the cost of many other's. And there is no reason why we should allow that to continue. Don't read those who stole the voice others. They did not earn your attention, and you can give it to those who were less fortunate instead.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  > No, they were always bad. No they weren't. > His fame came at the cost of many other's. That's true for literally everyone that has ever been in the limelight. > Don't read those who stole the voice others. He didn't steal anyone's voices though, he 'just' (allegedly) sexually assaulted them. > They did not earn your attention, and you can give it to those who were less fortunate instead. Do you even hear what you're saying? 'Don't read these people because their works are actually good, read them because they're underprivileged!'
  - DagAgren 7y ago
    No, they probably are good. But you won't know if you just stick to the has-been abusers.

> idk what to do about all this; it's pretty easy for me to pass on rereading Asimov or MZB anyhow. His books don't become worse because of alleged bad behaviour.

djur 7y ago

If the voice of an author can be heard through their writing, the act of reading can be affected by one's understanding of the author. "Death of the author" may be a useful critical technique but it's not the way most people emotionally or intellectually connect with art. Having known this about Asimov for quite some time, it hasn't kept me from enjoying that of his work I really like, but it has somewhat dulled my enjoyment of him overall as an author. In particular, although it's never been a favorite of mine anyway, I can't see myself being able to avoid noticing that _Foundation's Edge_ has a plotline that pairs off a middle-aged professor with a young, pretty, sexually open-minded woman who is "bottom heavy".

Rerarom 7y ago
Interesting how Robot/Foundation novels from the 1980s are more sexual than earlier ones, like with Dune novels from the 1980s.
krapp 7y ago
I really enjoy the concepts in H.P. Lovecraft's mythos, particularly where horror intersects with science fiction, but I also enjoy it a lot less after learning about his rabid antisemitic and racist views[0], which were extreme even for the time. I also used to like Piers Anthony's books when I was young, and too naive to pick up on how much the author seemed to like writing about little girls panties and fetishizing pedophilia[1]. Some people can ignore the problematic elements, and some can't. You don't have to read The Shadow Over Innsmouth as metaphor for race mixing, but once you know it's there, you can't unknow it. [0]https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/ https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supre... [1]https://litreactor.com/columns/themes-of-pedophilia-in-the-works-of-piers-anthony https://litreactor.com/columns/themes-of-pedophilia-in-the-w...

hartror 7y ago

The philosophy you are espousing is known in literary theory as "Death of the Author". > argues against the method of reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity to distill meaning from the author's work. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author I recommend Lindsay Ellis' video on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGn9x4-Y_7A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGn9x4-Y_7A Many of the golden age authors rage from "just" problematic like Asimov to a lot worse (see for more: http://www.jasonsanford.com/blog/2018/2/golden-age-sf-not-golden-everyone http://www.jasonsanford.com/blog/2018/2/golden-age-sf-not-go...). I still read these authors but I for one cannot help see the author in their books, and knowledge of their actions certainly influences how I interpret these books. I therefore don't believe in Death of the Author.

kd5bjo 7y ago
>I for one cannot help see the author in their books, and knowledge of their actions certainly influences how I interpret these books. This is part of the reason why I avoid reading about authors. Like the practice of symphonies doing auditions blind in order to avoid bias, I don't want my personal opinions of an author's life to taint my evaluation of their work.
AllegedAlec 7y ago
> The philosophy you are espousing is known in literary theory as "Death of the Author". No, it's not. I'm not talking about literary criticism or text interpretation. I'm talking about reading books for fun.
- Angostura 7y ago
  In that case, I would think that reading books by a particular author could become "less fun" once you know about their behaviour. In the same way, I used to have some Rolf Harris novelty songs on my iPod playlist for the kids - and sone Gary Glitter. Listening to those songs once they were convicted, certainly became "less fun".
  - 7y ago

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago

They do. His female characters might as well have been written by an adolescent. He's hardly unique in that. MZB's Mists of Avalon has similar issues from a different gender perspective. Asimov looks especially crude now, with the distance of a few decades. I wouldn't be surprised if more recent fiction suffers a similar reassessment in time. SF is rarely character-led and it may be optimistic to expect depth or nuance from it. Character design is more likely to be an aspect of fan service - give the readers a fantasy they can identify with, maybe add some flaws for spice - and not so much an opportunity for self-reflection.

neiman 7y ago
> SF is rarely character-led and it may be optimistic to expect depth or nuance from it. I really don't think it's true anymore, see all Hugo award SF nominees and winners from the past few years. They are all character-led.
- Jaruzel 7y ago
  Everything these days is people-orientated. The rise and rise of reality TV and social media is testament to that.
  - Ar-Curunir 7y ago
    Mate, everything throughout history has been people-oriented. Almost every famous story throughout history has had a main character, because that's what humans find easiest to identify with: other people.
    - keiferski 7y ago
      You are confusing 'character-led' with 'includes characters.' Plenty of stories are primarily about an abstract idea, place, or ethical lesson and the characters only exist to explain the ideas or move the plot along. This is in contrast to 'character-led' fiction, in which the primary focus is the character themselves and their development.

swiley 7y ago

IMO: his later books are pretty weird and have a lot of sexual themes that I personally don’t like. His early stuff is still absolutely fantastic though.

DagAgren 7y ago

No, they were always bad. But more importantly, his behaviour kept others out of the field. It stopped them having their voice heard. His fame came at the cost of many other's. And there is no reason why we should allow that to continue. Don't read those who stole the voice others. They did not earn your attention, and you can give it to those who were less fortunate instead.

AllegedAlec 7y ago
> No, they were always bad. No they weren't. > His fame came at the cost of many other's. That's true for literally everyone that has ever been in the limelight. > Don't read those who stole the voice others. He didn't steal anyone's voices though, he 'just' (allegedly) sexually assaulted them. > They did not earn your attention, and you can give it to those who were less fortunate instead. Do you even hear what you're saying? 'Don't read these people because their works are actually good, read them because they're underprivileged!'
- DagAgren 7y ago
  No, they probably are good. But you won't know if you just stick to the has-been abusers.