6 ms·

SF has always had a problem. As the article points out, there's a certain irony in going to Harlan Ellison to ask about Asimov being a harasser. I think the lis

SF has always had a problem. As the article points out, there's a certain irony in going to Harlan Ellison to ask about Asimov being a harasser. I think the list is pretty long. But the "communal aspects of fan culture" of SF - almost groupies in the fandom - has led to some very tight networks protecting all sorts of people. A particularly horrifying axis is that between Marion Zimmer Bradley and her husband, Walter Breen. Bradley is merely accused (to be clear: I believe the accuser) but Breen was a convicted molester who was known to be problematic for years - with people in fandom just trying to manage the situation. If this doesn't sound familiar from tech, you haven't been paying attention. idk what to do about all this; it's pretty easy for me to pass on rereading Asimov or MZB anyhow. But the obvious lesson, still unlearned in many quarters, is "don't keep protecting harassers". To quote a better, or at least IMO more interesting author (please don't let him be a harasser too): "Papa Hegel he say that all we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. I know people who can't even learn from what happened this morning. Hegel must have been taking the long view." - Stand on Zanibar, John Brunner

tallanvor 7y ago
SF is still a reflection of the world in general. From business to politics, to religion, to the entertainment industry, the "important" people have and still do get away with doing things they shouldn't, and that community will often cover for them as long as possible. What may make things worse is that the SF community does still attract a larger percentage of socially awkward young people, mostly men, who are also extremely passionate, so seeing that type of behavior normalized can have a larger impression on them. This behavior needs to be stopped, but it needs to continue to be addressed in all communities.
- neiman 7y ago
  I agree with all you said, but I may put it in the past tense. I only started visiting Worldcon in the few years, but from what I see, there is huge awareness for it there, and these phenomenons do not exist there nowadays. They probably exist in other sff events, the sad/rabid puppies didn't disappear yet sadly, however, since Worldcon is the face of the field, I wouldn't define it as a "problem of contemporary SF"
- rimliu 7y ago
  > SF community does still attract a larger percentage of > socially awkward young people, mostly men So does gaming. You know, where often what you do is going around shooting people. Should this be stopped too?
  - square_usual 7y ago
    If you go to a gaming convention and see someone literally shoot people, yeah, I guess you should stop that too. There's a difference between fiction and reality, and this sexual harassment is taking place within the scene in reality.
AllegedAlec 7y ago
> idk what to do about all this; it's pretty easy for me to pass on rereading Asimov or MZB anyhow. His books don't become worse because of alleged bad behaviour.
- djur 7y ago
  If the voice of an author can be heard through their writing, the act of reading can be affected by one's understanding of the author. "Death of the author" may be a useful critical technique but it's not the way most people emotionally or intellectually connect with art. Having known this about Asimov for quite some time, it hasn't kept me from enjoying that of his work I really like, but it has somewhat dulled my enjoyment of him overall as an author. In particular, although it's never been a favorite of mine anyway, I can't see myself being able to avoid noticing that _Foundation's Edge_ has a plotline that pairs off a middle-aged professor with a young, pretty, sexually open-minded woman who is "bottom heavy".
  - Rerarom 7y ago
    Interesting how Robot/Foundation novels from the 1980s are more sexual than earlier ones, like with Dune novels from the 1980s.
  - krapp 7y ago
    I really enjoy the concepts in H.P. Lovecraft's mythos, particularly where horror intersects with science fiction, but I also enjoy it a lot less after learning about his rabid antisemitic and racist views[0], which were extreme even for the time. I also used to like Piers Anthony's books when I was young, and too naive to pick up on how much the author seemed to like writing about little girls panties and fetishizing pedophilia[1]. Some people can ignore the problematic elements, and some can't. You don't have to read The Shadow Over Innsmouth as metaphor for race mixing, but once you know it's there, you can't unknow it. [0]https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/ https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supre... [1]https://litreactor.com/columns/themes-of-pedophilia-in-the-works-of-piers-anthony https://litreactor.com/columns/themes-of-pedophilia-in-the-w...
- 7y ago
LoSboccacc 7y ago
> "don't keep protecting harassers" it's not just people protecting bad behavior, omerta within a social circle is often a failure of the state/society to safely protect people in the circle from being outed when they speak up while the problematic person gets away scot-free. you need to reach a critical cultural mass before people are confident in speaking up, because the fear of retaliation is often the motivation before the need to protect the circle, see i.e. the harvey weinstein case. > If this doesn't sound familiar from tech, you haven't been paying attention. this is an overly broad generalization, there's plenty of techies outside the big flashy companies built on top of the silicon valley hero cult pattern.
elfexec 7y ago
> idk what to do about all this; it's pretty easy for me to pass on rereading Asimov or MZB anyhow. Then you probably can't read any great books, look at any great art, watch any great movie, listen to any great music, laugh with any great comedian, admire any great leader/politician, etc. I hate to break this to you but there really aren't any saints in this world. And if you do find a saint, it just means he was just better at hiding his true self from the world. Can you study physics after learning that Einstein was a racist bigot just like hitler? "It would be a pity if these Chinese supplant all other races. For the likes of us the mere thought is unspeakably dreary." https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2018/06/13/albert-einsteins-1920-s-travel-diaries-contain-shocking-slurs-against-chinese/698448002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2018/06/13/albert-einste... Einstein worried about the "chinese" ( and by chinese he most likely meant asians ) taking over the world like hitler worried about jews taking over the world. Granted Einstein never did anything about it, though he indirectly helped in the nuking of the "automaton spiritless and obtuse 'chinese' children" in hiroshima and nagasaki. If you were wondering, Newton wasn't any better. Can you enjoy the Christmas Carol knowing that Dickens was a racist bigot? Or maybe you should do what we are all taught in philosophy and the arts and learn to separate the art from the artist. They are not one and the same. You can appreciate the art and despise the artist.
- glangdale 7y ago
  "what we are all taught in philosophy and the arts" What, exactly, are you talking about? I happen to have done a double major (computer science and philosophy) and don't recall any "separate the art from the artist" unit there. Obviously you can treat the works separately from the author, and sometimes you benefit from placing them in context (I recall the convenient way that each successive empiricist - Hobbes, Locke, Mill iirc - all seemed to land on outcomes awfully convenient to their backers). In any case, your sophomore-level tirade is moot, as really I think Asimov and MZB suck and I've never cared that much for them even before I found that that he was a lech and she was a monster.
  - elfexec 7y ago
    > What, exactly, are you talking about? I happen to have done a double major (computer science and philosophy) and don't recall any "separate the art from the artist" unit there. You never took a "philosophy of art" or aesthetics course? You never learned about "art qua art"? I distinctly remember discussing whether artists from tupac to roman polanski should be appreciated, whether their art should be banned, whether they should even be credited, etc. > In any case, your sophomore-level tirade is moot Thanks for the ad hominem. I hope your philosophy course taught you about that.

tallanvor 7y ago

SF is still a reflection of the world in general. From business to politics, to religion, to the entertainment industry, the "important" people have and still do get away with doing things they shouldn't, and that community will often cover for them as long as possible. What may make things worse is that the SF community does still attract a larger percentage of socially awkward young people, mostly men, who are also extremely passionate, so seeing that type of behavior normalized can have a larger impression on them. This behavior needs to be stopped, but it needs to continue to be addressed in all communities.

neiman 7y ago
I agree with all you said, but I may put it in the past tense. I only started visiting Worldcon in the few years, but from what I see, there is huge awareness for it there, and these phenomenons do not exist there nowadays. They probably exist in other sff events, the sad/rabid puppies didn't disappear yet sadly, however, since Worldcon is the face of the field, I wouldn't define it as a "problem of contemporary SF"
rimliu 7y ago
> SF community does still attract a larger percentage of > socially awkward young people, mostly men So does gaming. You know, where often what you do is going around shooting people. Should this be stopped too?
- square_usual 7y ago
  If you go to a gaming convention and see someone literally shoot people, yeah, I guess you should stop that too. There's a difference between fiction and reality, and this sexual harassment is taking place within the scene in reality.

AllegedAlec 7y ago

> idk what to do about all this; it's pretty easy for me to pass on rereading Asimov or MZB anyhow. His books don't become worse because of alleged bad behaviour.

djur 7y ago
If the voice of an author can be heard through their writing, the act of reading can be affected by one's understanding of the author. "Death of the author" may be a useful critical technique but it's not the way most people emotionally or intellectually connect with art. Having known this about Asimov for quite some time, it hasn't kept me from enjoying that of his work I really like, but it has somewhat dulled my enjoyment of him overall as an author. In particular, although it's never been a favorite of mine anyway, I can't see myself being able to avoid noticing that _Foundation's Edge_ has a plotline that pairs off a middle-aged professor with a young, pretty, sexually open-minded woman who is "bottom heavy".
- Rerarom 7y ago
  Interesting how Robot/Foundation novels from the 1980s are more sexual than earlier ones, like with Dune novels from the 1980s.
- krapp 7y ago
  I really enjoy the concepts in H.P. Lovecraft's mythos, particularly where horror intersects with science fiction, but I also enjoy it a lot less after learning about his rabid antisemitic and racist views[0], which were extreme even for the time. I also used to like Piers Anthony's books when I was young, and too naive to pick up on how much the author seemed to like writing about little girls panties and fetishizing pedophilia[1]. Some people can ignore the problematic elements, and some can't. You don't have to read The Shadow Over Innsmouth as metaphor for race mixing, but once you know it's there, you can't unknow it. [0]https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/ https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supre... [1]https://litreactor.com/columns/themes-of-pedophilia-in-the-works-of-piers-anthony https://litreactor.com/columns/themes-of-pedophilia-in-the-w...
7y ago

LoSboccacc 7y ago

> "don't keep protecting harassers" it's not just people protecting bad behavior, omerta within a social circle is often a failure of the state/society to safely protect people in the circle from being outed when they speak up while the problematic person gets away scot-free. you need to reach a critical cultural mass before people are confident in speaking up, because the fear of retaliation is often the motivation before the need to protect the circle, see i.e. the harvey weinstein case. > If this doesn't sound familiar from tech, you haven't been paying attention. this is an overly broad generalization, there's plenty of techies outside the big flashy companies built on top of the silicon valley hero cult pattern.

elfexec 7y ago

> idk what to do about all this; it's pretty easy for me to pass on rereading Asimov or MZB anyhow. Then you probably can't read any great books, look at any great art, watch any great movie, listen to any great music, laugh with any great comedian, admire any great leader/politician, etc. I hate to break this to you but there really aren't any saints in this world. And if you do find a saint, it just means he was just better at hiding his true self from the world. Can you study physics after learning that Einstein was a racist bigot just like hitler? "It would be a pity if these Chinese supplant all other races. For the likes of us the mere thought is unspeakably dreary." https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2018/06/13/albert-einsteins-1920-s-travel-diaries-contain-shocking-slurs-against-chinese/698448002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2018/06/13/albert-einste... Einstein worried about the "chinese" ( and by chinese he most likely meant asians ) taking over the world like hitler worried about jews taking over the world. Granted Einstein never did anything about it, though he indirectly helped in the nuking of the "automaton spiritless and obtuse 'chinese' children" in hiroshima and nagasaki. If you were wondering, Newton wasn't any better. Can you enjoy the Christmas Carol knowing that Dickens was a racist bigot? Or maybe you should do what we are all taught in philosophy and the arts and learn to separate the art from the artist. They are not one and the same. You can appreciate the art and despise the artist.

glangdale 7y ago
"what we are all taught in philosophy and the arts" What, exactly, are you talking about? I happen to have done a double major (computer science and philosophy) and don't recall any "separate the art from the artist" unit there. Obviously you can treat the works separately from the author, and sometimes you benefit from placing them in context (I recall the convenient way that each successive empiricist - Hobbes, Locke, Mill iirc - all seemed to land on outcomes awfully convenient to their backers). In any case, your sophomore-level tirade is moot, as really I think Asimov and MZB suck and I've never cared that much for them even before I found that that he was a lech and she was a monster.
- elfexec 7y ago
  > What, exactly, are you talking about? I happen to have done a double major (computer science and philosophy) and don't recall any "separate the art from the artist" unit there. You never took a "philosophy of art" or aesthetics course? You never learned about "art qua art"? I distinctly remember discussing whether artists from tupac to roman polanski should be appreciated, whether their art should be banned, whether they should even be credited, etc. > In any case, your sophomore-level tirade is moot Thanks for the ad hominem. I hope your philosophy course taught you about that.