5 ms·

> As a male software engineer, I feel as though no-one is welcomed or encouraged. I feel as though women are reacting to industries that have always been harsh

> As a male software engineer, I feel as though no-one is welcomed or encouraged. I feel as though women are reacting to industries that have always been harsh and unwelcoming and feeling uniquely victimised. Have you ever had someone grab your ass or try to kiss you without consent in a professional context? Ever had a corporate officer seem interested in hiring you, call you in for an interview, ask you on a date, and then decide not to hire you when you rejected them? Ever been told on the first day by a new boss about their open relationship with their spouse, and their search for new sexual partners? Ever had a coworker make an overtly sexist joke about your gender to your face? Ever been propositioned for sex by a stranger at a conference? Ever heard a friend explain that “I would never work for a woman boss. No offense, you’re not like most women.” Ever been denied a new job or a promotion because the decision-maker thought you might have a child within the next few years? Ever been the clear expert or authority in a meeting with multiple people and been repeatedly interrupted by someone asking the clueless novice next to you to explain what you were just trying to say? Ever had a novice badly try to explain the content of your own book to you, even after you mentioned you were the author? Ever gone to speak at an event and had someone ask you which speaker was your spouse? Etc. etc. ad nauseam. If none of the above, then you probably are misunderstanding what people say when they claim to feel frequently unwelcome.

lebrown 7y ago
I guess we should not even talk of the ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence that happens every day at many working environments. Nah, let us focus on a caricature of the dominant evil male and let us live in a world of perpetual victimization while spewing lots of ideological Indoctrination.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  Let’s be clear: (1) My impression (as a man myself) is that the vast majority of men in the tech industry are well meaning and respectful. It only takes a few – especially a few in positions of power – to make the whole culture feel unwelcoming. (2) I have not called anyone “evil” here. Something can be inconsiderate, unprofessional, make someone feel unwelcome, be directly harmful, or have pernicious systemic effects when perpetuated at scale, while still not being profoundly depraved or irredeemably malevolent. (3) Nobody is defending “ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence”.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    (4) The problem isn't all men. It's all women have to deal with this shit.
    - fatbird 7y ago
      This comment shouldn't be downvoted: It gets at a low level asymetry in the problem. Only some men are actively problematic, but the combination of some problematic men and most non-problematic men tolerating or excusing their behaviour, puts all the women in the group in a position of dealing with the bad behaviour of "the problematic some". In the past, this meant what's identified in the article: they would avoid the harasser when possible, and the presence of harrassers like Asimov was a deterrent to participation. Also, as with Harvey Weinstein, Jian Ghomeshi and others, there was a whisper network around him to ensure that women were warned of his behaviour. Male scifi writers would happily spend an evening drinking with him at a convention, unaware of any risk; females kept their distance as much as professionally possible. Asimov knew, and was proud of, his status as "lech" (his word); I wonder if he was aware of the extent to which women tried to keep their distance from him. This is a common theme that recurs amongst various forms of oppression: the oppressor's group doesn't have to think about the problem (this is a big part of privilege, btw), while the oppressed are forced to be aware of it and at least prepared to deal with it constantly.
- goto11 7y ago
  Why would you not talk about that? Do you think one form of harassment somehow cancels out another form of harassment?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gvjddbnvdrbv 7y ago
> Have you ever had someone grab your ass or try to kiss you without consent? Yes Someone has grabbed my cock without my consent as well. > Ever been denied a new job or a promotion because the decision-maker thought you might have a child within the next few years? Yes
- jacobolus 7y ago
  > Someone has grabbed my cock without my consent as well. In a professional context? Yeesh. Sorry to hear that (whatever the context). Sexual harassment/assault of anyone anywhere should be unacceptable. I’m not asking whether this has ever happened to any man ever though. I’m asking if the specific guy claiming that nobody of any description feels welcome in the tech industry (and that women who claim that there is specific gender discrimination are just imagining things) has had any of those kinds of experiences. As a man, I have had conversations about this topic with various male and female friends in the tech industry over the years, and anecdotally few if any of the men ever experience gender discrimination or sexual harassment in professional contexts while essentially all of the women do at least occasionally (some regularly).
- fatbird 7y ago
  Yes, men are also the victims of sexual harassment, assault and rape. It's surprising that acknowledging this is frequently presented as evidence that women don't have it that bad in this respect.
- HaloZero 7y ago
  Imagine how awful that felt and how shitty it was. If it wasn't that bad, imagine having to deal with it frequently.
toohotatopic 7y ago
Does this mean that men have to change? Why not accept that this is the way it is? If many women and some men want safe spaces, why not create startups that cater to them?
- HaloZero 7y ago
  1) Because that's a shitty situation to be in for all the women who want to contribute to STEM 2) The current system is notoriously male (especially in VC circles), so effectively if you want safe spaces women would somehow have to enter these spaces to secure capital. There's an imbalance at the top that can't be corrected easily but can be changed with time.
  - toohotatopic 7y ago
    Every rich man leaves a widow behind and with some probability a heiress. There is enough money under female control to start a company with female values. Maybe women don't have access to the top VC circles but likewise many men also don't get access and still continue. The situation is not made for them, but why should that be an issue? It's not necessary that they have the best circumstances. The situation just has to be good enough and I think that's given. There will never be balance at the top, simply because of the higher variance in male iq. The most intelligent humans will always be predominately men. And those men will never create equal opportunities because people thrive for the top to have an advantage. Why give away that advantage when you are there? Some will, but the overall system will be imbalanced. So, why wait for better times instead of making the best out of now?
- yokaze 7y ago
  Society needs to change. It's not about "men vs women". Men have to take responsibility partly because most often we are perpetrators, partly because we are most often in power. If there is a women dominated environment, I would expect the same vice versa. Why do we create startups that cater to the needs of abusive people by tolerating or even excusing their behaviour?
  - 7y ago

lebrown 7y ago

I guess we should not even talk of the ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence that happens every day at many working environments. Nah, let us focus on a caricature of the dominant evil male and let us live in a world of perpetual victimization while spewing lots of ideological Indoctrination.

jacobolus 7y ago
Let’s be clear: (1) My impression (as a man myself) is that the vast majority of men in the tech industry are well meaning and respectful. It only takes a few – especially a few in positions of power – to make the whole culture feel unwelcoming. (2) I have not called anyone “evil” here. Something can be inconsiderate, unprofessional, make someone feel unwelcome, be directly harmful, or have pernicious systemic effects when perpetuated at scale, while still not being profoundly depraved or irredeemably malevolent. (3) Nobody is defending “ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence”.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  (4) The problem isn't all men. It's all women have to deal with this shit.
  - fatbird 7y ago
    This comment shouldn't be downvoted: It gets at a low level asymetry in the problem. Only some men are actively problematic, but the combination of some problematic men and most non-problematic men tolerating or excusing their behaviour, puts all the women in the group in a position of dealing with the bad behaviour of "the problematic some". In the past, this meant what's identified in the article: they would avoid the harasser when possible, and the presence of harrassers like Asimov was a deterrent to participation. Also, as with Harvey Weinstein, Jian Ghomeshi and others, there was a whisper network around him to ensure that women were warned of his behaviour. Male scifi writers would happily spend an evening drinking with him at a convention, unaware of any risk; females kept their distance as much as professionally possible. Asimov knew, and was proud of, his status as "lech" (his word); I wonder if he was aware of the extent to which women tried to keep their distance from him. This is a common theme that recurs amongst various forms of oppression: the oppressor's group doesn't have to think about the problem (this is a big part of privilege, btw), while the oppressed are forced to be aware of it and at least prepared to deal with it constantly.
goto11 7y ago
Why would you not talk about that? Do you think one form of harassment somehow cancels out another form of harassment?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gvjddbnvdrbv 7y ago

> Have you ever had someone grab your ass or try to kiss you without consent? Yes Someone has grabbed my cock without my consent as well. > Ever been denied a new job or a promotion because the decision-maker thought you might have a child within the next few years? Yes

jacobolus 7y ago
> Someone has grabbed my cock without my consent as well. In a professional context? Yeesh. Sorry to hear that (whatever the context). Sexual harassment/assault of anyone anywhere should be unacceptable. I’m not asking whether this has ever happened to any man ever though. I’m asking if the specific guy claiming that nobody of any description feels welcome in the tech industry (and that women who claim that there is specific gender discrimination are just imagining things) has had any of those kinds of experiences. As a man, I have had conversations about this topic with various male and female friends in the tech industry over the years, and anecdotally few if any of the men ever experience gender discrimination or sexual harassment in professional contexts while essentially all of the women do at least occasionally (some regularly).
fatbird 7y ago
Yes, men are also the victims of sexual harassment, assault and rape. It's surprising that acknowledging this is frequently presented as evidence that women don't have it that bad in this respect.
HaloZero 7y ago
Imagine how awful that felt and how shitty it was. If it wasn't that bad, imagine having to deal with it frequently.

toohotatopic 7y ago

Does this mean that men have to change? Why not accept that this is the way it is? If many women and some men want safe spaces, why not create startups that cater to them?

HaloZero 7y ago
1) Because that's a shitty situation to be in for all the women who want to contribute to STEM 2) The current system is notoriously male (especially in VC circles), so effectively if you want safe spaces women would somehow have to enter these spaces to secure capital. There's an imbalance at the top that can't be corrected easily but can be changed with time.
- toohotatopic 7y ago
  Every rich man leaves a widow behind and with some probability a heiress. There is enough money under female control to start a company with female values. Maybe women don't have access to the top VC circles but likewise many men also don't get access and still continue. The situation is not made for them, but why should that be an issue? It's not necessary that they have the best circumstances. The situation just has to be good enough and I think that's given. There will never be balance at the top, simply because of the higher variance in male iq. The most intelligent humans will always be predominately men. And those men will never create equal opportunities because people thrive for the top to have an advantage. Why give away that advantage when you are there? Some will, but the overall system will be imbalanced. So, why wait for better times instead of making the best out of now?
yokaze 7y ago
Society needs to change. It's not about "men vs women". Men have to take responsibility partly because most often we are perpetrators, partly because we are most often in power. If there is a women dominated environment, I would expect the same vice versa. Why do we create startups that cater to the needs of abusive people by tolerating or even excusing their behaviour?
- 7y ago