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> From an early age, Asimov was drawn to the communal aspects of fan culture, but he made it more difficult for women to experience that sense of community. Wom

> From an early age, Asimov was drawn to the communal aspects of fan culture, but he made it more difficult for women to experience that sense of community. Women have long occupied an ambiguous place in science fiction, where they have been alternately welcomed, dismissed, and harassed... There's a common refrain heard recently regarding basically any historically male dominated domain, that women are not welcomed or encouraged. This is unfortunately all-too-common in software engineering. As a male software engineer, I feel as though no-one is welcomed or encouraged. I feel as though women are reacting to industries that have always been harsh and unwelcoming and feeling uniquely victimised.

crooked-v 7y ago
Even if that were true, crab-in-a-bucket mentality doesn't do anything good.
- fearingreprisal 7y ago
  Don't imply that I have a crab-in-a-bucket mentality. I don't want my industry to be unfriendly and unwelcoming. I didn't tell you how it has affected me personally either.
watwut 7y ago
The main claim in article is the huge amount of women groped including odd example of shaking left breast instead of hand. Which leads to women finding excuses to not be in building when Asimov comes around. This sort of behavior makes community aspect of it all much different for both genders.
jacobolus 7y ago
> As a male software engineer, I feel as though no-one is welcomed or encouraged. I feel as though women are reacting to industries that have always been harsh and unwelcoming and feeling uniquely victimised. Have you ever had someone grab your ass or try to kiss you without consent in a professional context? Ever had a corporate officer seem interested in hiring you, call you in for an interview, ask you on a date, and then decide not to hire you when you rejected them? Ever been told on the first day by a new boss about their open relationship with their spouse, and their search for new sexual partners? Ever had a coworker make an overtly sexist joke about your gender to your face? Ever been propositioned for sex by a stranger at a conference? Ever heard a friend explain that “I would never work for a woman boss. No offense, you’re not like most women.” Ever been denied a new job or a promotion because the decision-maker thought you might have a child within the next few years? Ever been the clear expert or authority in a meeting with multiple people and been repeatedly interrupted by someone asking the clueless novice next to you to explain what you were just trying to say? Ever had a novice badly try to explain the content of your own book to you, even after you mentioned you were the author? Ever gone to speak at an event and had someone ask you which speaker was your spouse? Etc. etc. ad nauseam. If none of the above, then you probably are misunderstanding what people say when they claim to feel frequently unwelcome.
- lebrown 7y ago
  I guess we should not even talk of the ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence that happens every day at many working environments. Nah, let us focus on a caricature of the dominant evil male and let us live in a world of perpetual victimization while spewing lots of ideological Indoctrination.
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    Let’s be clear: (1) My impression (as a man myself) is that the vast majority of men in the tech industry are well meaning and respectful. It only takes a few – especially a few in positions of power – to make the whole culture feel unwelcoming. (2) I have not called anyone “evil” here. Something can be inconsiderate, unprofessional, make someone feel unwelcome, be directly harmful, or have pernicious systemic effects when perpetuated at scale, while still not being profoundly depraved or irredeemably malevolent. (3) Nobody is defending “ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence”.
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      (4) The problem isn't all men. It's all women have to deal with this shit.
      - fatbird 7y ago
        This comment shouldn't be downvoted: It gets at a low level asymetry in the problem. Only some men are actively problematic, but the combination of some problematic men and most non-problematic men tolerating or excusing their behaviour, puts all the women in the group in a position of dealing with the bad behaviour of "the problematic some". In the past, this meant what's identified in the article: they would avoid the harasser when possible, and the presence of harrassers like Asimov was a deterrent to participation. Also, as with Harvey Weinstein, Jian Ghomeshi and others, there was a whisper network around him to ensure that women were warned of his behaviour. Male scifi writers would happily spend an evening drinking with him at a convention, unaware of any risk; females kept their distance as much as professionally possible. Asimov knew, and was proud of, his status as "lech" (his word); I wonder if he was aware of the extent to which women tried to keep their distance from him. This is a common theme that recurs amongst various forms of oppression: the oppressor's group doesn't have to think about the problem (this is a big part of privilege, btw), while the oppressed are forced to be aware of it and at least prepared to deal with it constantly.
glangdale 7y ago
What you are saying fractally wrong - rubbish at every level of magnification. Men have traditionally been welcomed and mentored in male-dominated domains like computing and science fiction. Further, even when what you are saying is true, there is a massive difference between "hey, it's a rough field, they give everyone a hard time" type treatment and being sexually harassed and/or raped. I knew women in civil engineering degrees in the early 90s who are essentially sexually harassed by almost all of their peers in an organized fashion on overnight university excursions (I believe the gender ratio was something like 96:4). The account of the trip gave me the feeling (and them) that they were teetering just an inch away from being gang-raped. This is 1991, not 1961. Almost all the women I know in undergraduate computer science were endlessly propositioned for dates or sexual contact not just by their peers but also teaching staff. A tutor I knew had an Asian girlie calendar on the wall and would talk at length to Asian female students about how much he admired that body type - during office hour type appointments. This shit has been completely typical and there is absolutely no parallel to the treatment of men (except, from what I hear, gay men - who have often been victimized in a similar way by predatory senior men). If what you wrote is even mildly reflective of your actual character, I think there is a simpler explanation as to why you don't feel "welcomed or encouraged". If you cropped up anywhere where I had any clout and started spouting off stuff like the above I'd make damn sure that you found the environment "harsh and unwelcoming" too.
- toxik 7y ago
  I know and knew dozens of women in computer science degrees, this did not ever happen to many of them. We’re not harsh or unwelcoming to women here, yet the women stay away.
  - zorpner 7y ago
    I know and knew dozens of women in computer science degrees, this did not ever happen to many of them. They didn't tell you about it, at least.
  - glangdale 7y ago
    It's certainly not evenly distributed. I moved from a undergraduate school with tons of stories like this to a graduate school with very few, and, as far as I know, the undergraduate side was not problematic either. You also may not have heard everyone's stories. I also have known probably orders of magnitude more women in CS than would necessarily be comfortable sharing unpleasant stories of harassment and discrimination with me. I think it's remarkable, of the women I've known fairly well, how many had stories like this (the civil eng one was really out there, to be clear).
adjkant 7y ago
This is perhaps a good read to understand why your claim 100% not the case: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-silicon-valley-so-awful-to-women/517788/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-...
jordanbeiber 7y ago
Ten years ago, previous place of employment, we had a guy leave the team. The idea was to replace and recruit internally. There was this young woman, junior consultant in a different team, early 20s, that had caught my attention due to her drive and general fearlessness. Upon strongly suggesting hiring her my then manager replied: “but she’s a girl!”. Granted, he was almost 60 at the time (different generation and times) but my jaw dropped... This guy who I really appreciated as a manager could have such views? I had no idea up to that point. I’ve never personally known this happen to a “boy” in our industry.

crooked-v 7y ago

Even if that were true, crab-in-a-bucket mentality doesn't do anything good.

fearingreprisal 7y ago
Don't imply that I have a crab-in-a-bucket mentality. I don't want my industry to be unfriendly and unwelcoming. I didn't tell you how it has affected me personally either.

watwut 7y ago

The main claim in article is the huge amount of women groped including odd example of shaking left breast instead of hand. Which leads to women finding excuses to not be in building when Asimov comes around. This sort of behavior makes community aspect of it all much different for both genders.

jacobolus 7y ago

> As a male software engineer, I feel as though no-one is welcomed or encouraged. I feel as though women are reacting to industries that have always been harsh and unwelcoming and feeling uniquely victimised. Have you ever had someone grab your ass or try to kiss you without consent in a professional context? Ever had a corporate officer seem interested in hiring you, call you in for an interview, ask you on a date, and then decide not to hire you when you rejected them? Ever been told on the first day by a new boss about their open relationship with their spouse, and their search for new sexual partners? Ever had a coworker make an overtly sexist joke about your gender to your face? Ever been propositioned for sex by a stranger at a conference? Ever heard a friend explain that “I would never work for a woman boss. No offense, you’re not like most women.” Ever been denied a new job or a promotion because the decision-maker thought you might have a child within the next few years? Ever been the clear expert or authority in a meeting with multiple people and been repeatedly interrupted by someone asking the clueless novice next to you to explain what you were just trying to say? Ever had a novice badly try to explain the content of your own book to you, even after you mentioned you were the author? Ever gone to speak at an event and had someone ask you which speaker was your spouse? Etc. etc. ad nauseam. If none of the above, then you probably are misunderstanding what people say when they claim to feel frequently unwelcome.

lebrown 7y ago
I guess we should not even talk of the ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence that happens every day at many working environments. Nah, let us focus on a caricature of the dominant evil male and let us live in a world of perpetual victimization while spewing lots of ideological Indoctrination.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  Let’s be clear: (1) My impression (as a man myself) is that the vast majority of men in the tech industry are well meaning and respectful. It only takes a few – especially a few in positions of power – to make the whole culture feel unwelcoming. (2) I have not called anyone “evil” here. Something can be inconsiderate, unprofessional, make someone feel unwelcome, be directly harmful, or have pernicious systemic effects when perpetuated at scale, while still not being profoundly depraved or irredeemably malevolent. (3) Nobody is defending “ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence”.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    (4) The problem isn't all men. It's all women have to deal with this shit.
    - fatbird 7y ago
      This comment shouldn't be downvoted: It gets at a low level asymetry in the problem. Only some men are actively problematic, but the combination of some problematic men and most non-problematic men tolerating or excusing their behaviour, puts all the women in the group in a position of dealing with the bad behaviour of "the problematic some". In the past, this meant what's identified in the article: they would avoid the harasser when possible, and the presence of harrassers like Asimov was a deterrent to participation. Also, as with Harvey Weinstein, Jian Ghomeshi and others, there was a whisper network around him to ensure that women were warned of his behaviour. Male scifi writers would happily spend an evening drinking with him at a convention, unaware of any risk; females kept their distance as much as professionally possible. Asimov knew, and was proud of, his status as "lech" (his word); I wonder if he was aware of the extent to which women tried to keep their distance from him. This is a common theme that recurs amongst various forms of oppression: the oppressor's group doesn't have to think about the problem (this is a big part of privilege, btw), while the oppressed are forced to be aware of it and at least prepared to deal with it constantly.

glangdale 7y ago

What you are saying fractally wrong - rubbish at every level of magnification. Men have traditionally been welcomed and mentored in male-dominated domains like computing and science fiction. Further, even when what you are saying is true, there is a massive difference between "hey, it's a rough field, they give everyone a hard time" type treatment and being sexually harassed and/or raped. I knew women in civil engineering degrees in the early 90s who are essentially sexually harassed by almost all of their peers in an organized fashion on overnight university excursions (I believe the gender ratio was something like 96:4). The account of the trip gave me the feeling (and them) that they were teetering just an inch away from being gang-raped. This is 1991, not 1961. Almost all the women I know in undergraduate computer science were endlessly propositioned for dates or sexual contact not just by their peers but also teaching staff. A tutor I knew had an Asian girlie calendar on the wall and would talk at length to Asian female students about how much he admired that body type - during office hour type appointments. This shit has been completely typical and there is absolutely no parallel to the treatment of men (except, from what I hear, gay men - who have often been victimized in a similar way by predatory senior men). If what you wrote is even mildly reflective of your actual character, I think there is a simpler explanation as to why you don't feel "welcomed or encouraged". If you cropped up anywhere where I had any clout and started spouting off stuff like the above I'd make damn sure that you found the environment "harsh and unwelcoming" too.

toxik 7y ago
I know and knew dozens of women in computer science degrees, this did not ever happen to many of them. We’re not harsh or unwelcoming to women here, yet the women stay away.
- zorpner 7y ago
  I know and knew dozens of women in computer science degrees, this did not ever happen to many of them. They didn't tell you about it, at least.
- glangdale 7y ago
  It's certainly not evenly distributed. I moved from a undergraduate school with tons of stories like this to a graduate school with very few, and, as far as I know, the undergraduate side was not problematic either. You also may not have heard everyone's stories. I also have known probably orders of magnitude more women in CS than would necessarily be comfortable sharing unpleasant stories of harassment and discrimination with me. I think it's remarkable, of the women I've known fairly well, how many had stories like this (the civil eng one was really out there, to be clear).

adjkant 7y ago

This is perhaps a good read to understand why your claim 100% not the case: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-silicon-valley-so-awful-to-women/517788/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-...

jordanbeiber 7y ago

Ten years ago, previous place of employment, we had a guy leave the team. The idea was to replace and recruit internally. There was this young woman, junior consultant in a different team, early 20s, that had caught my attention due to her drive and general fearlessness. Upon strongly suggesting hiring her my then manager replied: “but she’s a girl!”. Granted, he was almost 60 at the time (different generation and times) but my jaw dropped... This guy who I really appreciated as a manager could have such views? I had no idea up to that point. I’ve never personally known this happen to a “boy” in our industry.