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Your choice is to not build an SPA. There's nothing wrong with HTML, jQuery, and Bootstrap. I'm fairly convinced most JavaScript fatigue is the result of trying

by ng12 7y ago

Your choice is to not build an SPA. There's nothing wrong with HTML, jQuery, and Bootstrap. I'm fairly convinced most JavaScript fatigue is the result of trying to build very simple web pages with tools designed for 10k+ LoC SPAs.

pdimitar 7y ago
Part of the time you're right. But I do like to dabble with JS again -- after being backender only for years -- and I want to future-proof my work (if at all possible in the JS land). And I throw my hands in the air every time. Stuff like React or Vue generators seem to work fine but then I am left confused what do all the files do and why don't I have a stricter control over what gets pulled inside the project.
- naniwaduni 7y ago
  > and I want to future-proof my work (if at all possible in the JS land). how often has this panned out for you?
  - pdimitar 7y ago
    Never. Still looking for ways. JS ecosystem is immature.
- root_axis 7y ago
  Use the tools you understand to solve the problems at hand. The ecosystem wasn't built to optimize convenience for hobbyists, these tools have evolved over time to address specific needs, if you can't articulate the specific needs being addressed by every component in your asset pipeline, you shouldn't be using them.
  - pdimitar 7y ago
    Fair to a degree, I guess. Still, in the years during which I didn't work with JS, I picked like 5 other languages and even though they weren't exactly beginner-friendly I still managed rather quickly. JS though, always has been the exception. I understand what transpiling and bundling and minifying etc. are. But the tooling is somehow... don't know, hard to work with. And sometimes you get errors even in newly generated projects. It's indeed hard to articulate the problems but that’s because I've only done isolated toe-dipping for a while now, not because I don’t understand something. JS could still use shortcuts during development, a la the Parcel tool, and turn that into an universal approach in all of its ecosystem.
    - root_axis 7y ago
      > It's indeed hard to articulate the problems but that’s because I've only done isolated toe-dipping for a while now, not because I don’t understand something Exactly. I don't think your proficiency as a developer is in question, the issue is that your approach is backwards. You're searching for a reason to justify why you should use these tools, rather than trying to build a piece of software with specific requirements and then determining which tools facilitate that goal. > JS could still use shortcuts during development, a la the Parcel tool, and turn that into an universal approach in all of its ecosystem The ecosystem already represents millions of developer hours distilled into "shortcuts" that allow developers to achieve capabilities that are very impractical without those tools. The idea of a "universal approach" in open-source makes no sense, people use the tools that best solve the problems they encounter, there will never be a one-size fits all solution, you have to understand the problem you're facing in order to pick the correct tool for the job.
      - pdimitar 7y ago
        > You're searching for a reason to justify why you should use these tools, rather than trying to build a piece of software with specific requirements and then determining which tools facilitate that goal. I realise that and you are correct. I am just wondering: is there a way for me to ascertain if JS ecosystem has calmed down and is more friendly to productive programmer workflow, or is still pretty much the Wild West and everybody does whatever they like and there are not many widely accepted good practices for JS project management? It does seem however that I should just pick up a project idea from, say, RosettaGIT or TodoMVC, and try and implement them with a few different JS stacks (React / PReact / Vue / Svelte come to mind) and gather my own info.
        root_axis 7y ago
        > is there a way for me to ascertain if JS ecosystem has calmed down and is more friendly to productive programmer workflow I would reject the framing that suggests the ecosystem is not geared towards productivity. These frameworks allow developers to be more productive than ever, as I noted in another thread, these tools have been a proven success across every major tech company with a front-end presence, it's not just hype, there are demonstrable results. > everybody does whatever they like and there are not many widely accepted good practices for JS project management There are many widely accepted best practices, but thats a huge topic. Use of linters like eslint can ensure hundreds of best practices are enforced in your project, and type systems like flow/typescript are an indisputable boon to long-term software maintenance. A software project with types is always much easier to maintain than one without, and the upfront cost of thinking about your data structures in advance of writing your business logic is the technical debt equivalent of not carrying a month to month balance on your credit cards. > I should just pick up a project idea from, say, RosettaGIT or TodoMVC, and try and implement them with a few different JS stacks (React / PReact / Vue / Svelte come to mind) This is a great idea. Everyone has different opinions about these frameworks but they're all productive. In my personal opinion, React is the best of those options because the JSX code-as-markup paradigm means that your application variables interpolate with your views seamlessly without the added complexity of a system for processing gigantic string templates with custom logic directives and custom template inclusion mechanisms. Svelte has some interesting new ideas with regard to preprocessing the views at build time that are pretty cool, but I still prefer React due to the string template thing I just mentioned. PReact is basically just a slimmer React, not much distinction in terms of the workflow. I find Vue to be the least appealing of the options you mentioned since it has poor TypeScript support and in most implementations relies heavily on string templates, but it is often regarded as the most accessible framework for newcomers. Those are just my personal opinions, I think any of those tools are solid and they all have beginner friendly options like create-react-app to help you get up and running quickly.

by ng12 7y ago

pdimitar 7y ago

Part of the time you're right. But I do like to dabble with JS again -- after being backender only for years -- and I want to future-proof my work (if at all possible in the JS land). And I throw my hands in the air every time. Stuff like React or Vue generators seem to work fine but then I am left confused what do all the files do and why don't I have a stricter control over what gets pulled inside the project.

naniwaduni 7y ago
> and I want to future-proof my work (if at all possible in the JS land). how often has this panned out for you?
- pdimitar 7y ago
  Never. Still looking for ways. JS ecosystem is immature.
root_axis 7y ago
Use the tools you understand to solve the problems at hand. The ecosystem wasn't built to optimize convenience for hobbyists, these tools have evolved over time to address specific needs, if you can't articulate the specific needs being addressed by every component in your asset pipeline, you shouldn't be using them.
- pdimitar 7y ago
  Fair to a degree, I guess. Still, in the years during which I didn't work with JS, I picked like 5 other languages and even though they weren't exactly beginner-friendly I still managed rather quickly. JS though, always has been the exception. I understand what transpiling and bundling and minifying etc. are. But the tooling is somehow... don't know, hard to work with. And sometimes you get errors even in newly generated projects. It's indeed hard to articulate the problems but that’s because I've only done isolated toe-dipping for a while now, not because I don’t understand something. JS could still use shortcuts during development, a la the Parcel tool, and turn that into an universal approach in all of its ecosystem.
  - root_axis 7y ago
    > It's indeed hard to articulate the problems but that’s because I've only done isolated toe-dipping for a while now, not because I don’t understand something Exactly. I don't think your proficiency as a developer is in question, the issue is that your approach is backwards. You're searching for a reason to justify why you should use these tools, rather than trying to build a piece of software with specific requirements and then determining which tools facilitate that goal. > JS could still use shortcuts during development, a la the Parcel tool, and turn that into an universal approach in all of its ecosystem The ecosystem already represents millions of developer hours distilled into "shortcuts" that allow developers to achieve capabilities that are very impractical without those tools. The idea of a "universal approach" in open-source makes no sense, people use the tools that best solve the problems they encounter, there will never be a one-size fits all solution, you have to understand the problem you're facing in order to pick the correct tool for the job.
    - pdimitar 7y ago
      > You're searching for a reason to justify why you should use these tools, rather than trying to build a piece of software with specific requirements and then determining which tools facilitate that goal. I realise that and you are correct. I am just wondering: is there a way for me to ascertain if JS ecosystem has calmed down and is more friendly to productive programmer workflow, or is still pretty much the Wild West and everybody does whatever they like and there are not many widely accepted good practices for JS project management? It does seem however that I should just pick up a project idea from, say, RosettaGIT or TodoMVC, and try and implement them with a few different JS stacks (React / PReact / Vue / Svelte come to mind) and gather my own info.
      - root_axis 7y ago
        > is there a way for me to ascertain if JS ecosystem has calmed down and is more friendly to productive programmer workflow I would reject the framing that suggests the ecosystem is not geared towards productivity. These frameworks allow developers to be more productive than ever, as I noted in another thread, these tools have been a proven success across every major tech company with a front-end presence, it's not just hype, there are demonstrable results. > everybody does whatever they like and there are not many widely accepted good practices for JS project management There are many widely accepted best practices, but thats a huge topic. Use of linters like eslint can ensure hundreds of best practices are enforced in your project, and type systems like flow/typescript are an indisputable boon to long-term software maintenance. A software project with types is always much easier to maintain than one without, and the upfront cost of thinking about your data structures in advance of writing your business logic is the technical debt equivalent of not carrying a month to month balance on your credit cards. > I should just pick up a project idea from, say, RosettaGIT or TodoMVC, and try and implement them with a few different JS stacks (React / PReact / Vue / Svelte come to mind) This is a great idea. Everyone has different opinions about these frameworks but they're all productive. In my personal opinion, React is the best of those options because the JSX code-as-markup paradigm means that your application variables interpolate with your views seamlessly without the added complexity of a system for processing gigantic string templates with custom logic directives and custom template inclusion mechanisms. Svelte has some interesting new ideas with regard to preprocessing the views at build time that are pretty cool, but I still prefer React due to the string template thing I just mentioned. PReact is basically just a slimmer React, not much distinction in terms of the workflow. I find Vue to be the least appealing of the options you mentioned since it has poor TypeScript support and in most implementations relies heavily on string templates, but it is often regarded as the most accessible framework for newcomers. Those are just my personal opinions, I think any of those tools are solid and they all have beginner friendly options like create-react-app to help you get up and running quickly.