4 ms·

I'm not familiar with the legal dynamics of the netherlands, but this is a good example of why you should never talk to police without a lawyer present in the U

by cc-d 7y ago

I'm not familiar with the legal dynamics of the netherlands, but this is a good example of why you should never talk to police without a lawyer present in the United States.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE Never talk to the police without an attorney!
- harshreality 7y ago
  Yep, his new advice is to insist on a lawyer. You can even say something like "If it's important, I'd love to cooperate and talk to you, so I need a lawyer in order to do that. Let me know if you want me to set that up." That link is to his old talk where he recommends invoking the 5th. His newer talk is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTYZboDXYQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTYZboDXYQ His book should be easy to find at retailers or cough other ebook sites. Critical points: 1. The police are almost never trying to railroad anyone, but mistaken evidence, mistaken witnesses, or unfortunate consequences of telling the police things can make you look guilty. 2. You have no idea what the police are investigating. They can and will lie to you about this. They can and will lie to you about anything they want. See point 4. 3. There are tons of laws, especially federal laws, that are BS, and you're playing with fire thinking you can answer questions about what the investigators claim they're investigating without implicating yourself in some other crime. 4. Interrogators are trained to put an enormous amount of psychological pressure on you to help them, even if you realistically can't help, so you'll end up talking about anything and everything until (hopefully) the police realize you're actually not a good suspect, or until you've gotten tripped up and either admitted guilt or said something that makes you look guilty even if you're not. 5. Simply asserting the 5th, your right to remain silent, might now be able to be used against you if you don't do it perfectly and the cops/prosecutors think you're guilty and are willing to twist your invocation of the 5th against you. 6. Asserting the 5th isn't likely to stop interrogations immediately. Asking for a lawyer probably will. 7. Talking through a lawyer shields what you say from being used against you. Prof. Duane doesn't make this point explicitly in his talks, but Randy Barnett does in the second half of the above cato book talk. 8. If cops say they're going to arrest you, remember they're only arresting you if they have probable cause (or worse, they already have an arrest warrant). You need a virtually unassailable alibi that can be immediately verified (and hope the cop will verify it immediately) in order to be likely to talk your way out of being arrested. That almost never happens. A witness who will vouch for you is not the greatest alibi; cops may not believe them, especially if the witness is your friend or family, or the witness may not tell the cops what you hoped. If there's any doubt about your alibi, the cops are going to arrest you and book you anyway and sort things out later. And meanwhile what did you tell them for the 5 minutes or 30 minutes you were trying to talk your way out of it? And as Prof Duane notes, the advice he gives and that's in his book doesn't really apply to routine traffic stops. However, if it escalates to "can I search your car" or "step out of the vehicle"...
  - tmpz22 7y ago
    When you say > “I’d love to cooperate and talk with you, and I need a lawyer to do that” And the cop says > “why do you need a lawyer so bad?” What is one supposed to say?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - kthejoker2 7y ago
      Not a word. They can't make you talk.
    - bigiain 7y ago
      "I don't know. That's just the advice I've been given by people I trust."
    - harshreality 7y ago
      Blame the lawyers. That's what they're good for. "On advice of every defense lawyer I've ever heard, and even former prosecutors now in a position to give unbiased advice, unlike you, so I'm following their advice." The real answer to "why" is that "Asking for a lawyer is a ritual incantation that drives cops away like holy water does for vampires." You can't say that, so blame advice you've been given instead, or just keep repeating "I want a lawyer [in order to be able to talk to you]" like it's a mantra. You don't have to explain yourself. Cops are not interested in "why". They know perfectly well why. They know you don't want a lawyer, you just want to end the cop's interview and fishing expedition. They don't like that, so they're going to make you feel guilty about asking for a lawyer when you know and they know you really don't want one, and they're going to try to make you say something dumb as a result.
    - o-__-o 7y ago
      “Because I would like to cooperate!” Play the circles game with them, all day. And do it with a smile and the happiest attitude in the world.
      - deleted 7y ago
A_No_Name_Mouse 7y ago
Good general advice, but I'm not sure if that would have made a difference in my case. I was a suspect already. Giving a statement didn't have any negative consequences for me. Maybe it prevented a raid like in the OP's case.
- blackearl 7y ago
  > whenever I buy some form of insurance, one of the questions is if I have ever been suspected of fraud. Answer yes and there's a good chance the insurer will refuse. Answer no, and I'm actually committing fraud and the insurance may not be valid. It's also inconvenient as the same question comes up during screening (I'm a security officer now). This seems like a negative consequence
supergirl 7y ago
sure, but what would have changed in this case? he was a already suspect before he talked to the police right?
- rasz 7y ago
  Lawyer would make him a witness.

by cc-d 7y ago

I'm not familiar with the legal dynamics of the netherlands, but this is a good example of why you should never talk to police without a lawyer present in the United States.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE Never talk to the police without an attorney!

harshreality 7y ago
Yep, his new advice is to insist on a lawyer. You can even say something like "If it's important, I'd love to cooperate and talk to you, so I need a lawyer in order to do that. Let me know if you want me to set that up." That link is to his old talk where he recommends invoking the 5th. His newer talk is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTYZboDXYQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTYZboDXYQ His book should be easy to find at retailers or cough other ebook sites. Critical points: 1. The police are almost never trying to railroad anyone, but mistaken evidence, mistaken witnesses, or unfortunate consequences of telling the police things can make you look guilty. 2. You have no idea what the police are investigating. They can and will lie to you about this. They can and will lie to you about anything they want. See point 4. 3. There are tons of laws, especially federal laws, that are BS, and you're playing with fire thinking you can answer questions about what the investigators claim they're investigating without implicating yourself in some other crime. 4. Interrogators are trained to put an enormous amount of psychological pressure on you to help them, even if you realistically can't help, so you'll end up talking about anything and everything until (hopefully) the police realize you're actually not a good suspect, or until you've gotten tripped up and either admitted guilt or said something that makes you look guilty even if you're not. 5. Simply asserting the 5th, your right to remain silent, might now be able to be used against you if you don't do it perfectly and the cops/prosecutors think you're guilty and are willing to twist your invocation of the 5th against you. 6. Asserting the 5th isn't likely to stop interrogations immediately. Asking for a lawyer probably will. 7. Talking through a lawyer shields what you say from being used against you. Prof. Duane doesn't make this point explicitly in his talks, but Randy Barnett does in the second half of the above cato book talk. 8. If cops say they're going to arrest you, remember they're only arresting you if they have probable cause (or worse, they already have an arrest warrant). You need a virtually unassailable alibi that can be immediately verified (and hope the cop will verify it immediately) in order to be likely to talk your way out of being arrested. That almost never happens. A witness who will vouch for you is not the greatest alibi; cops may not believe them, especially if the witness is your friend or family, or the witness may not tell the cops what you hoped. If there's any doubt about your alibi, the cops are going to arrest you and book you anyway and sort things out later. And meanwhile what did you tell them for the 5 minutes or 30 minutes you were trying to talk your way out of it? And as Prof Duane notes, the advice he gives and that's in his book doesn't really apply to routine traffic stops. However, if it escalates to "can I search your car" or "step out of the vehicle"...
- tmpz22 7y ago
  When you say > “I’d love to cooperate and talk with you, and I need a lawyer to do that” And the cop says > “why do you need a lawyer so bad?” What is one supposed to say?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - kthejoker2 7y ago
    Not a word. They can't make you talk.
  - bigiain 7y ago
    "I don't know. That's just the advice I've been given by people I trust."
  - harshreality 7y ago
    Blame the lawyers. That's what they're good for. "On advice of every defense lawyer I've ever heard, and even former prosecutors now in a position to give unbiased advice, unlike you, so I'm following their advice." The real answer to "why" is that "Asking for a lawyer is a ritual incantation that drives cops away like holy water does for vampires." You can't say that, so blame advice you've been given instead, or just keep repeating "I want a lawyer [in order to be able to talk to you]" like it's a mantra. You don't have to explain yourself. Cops are not interested in "why". They know perfectly well why. They know you don't want a lawyer, you just want to end the cop's interview and fishing expedition. They don't like that, so they're going to make you feel guilty about asking for a lawyer when you know and they know you really don't want one, and they're going to try to make you say something dumb as a result.
  - o-__-o 7y ago
    “Because I would like to cooperate!” Play the circles game with them, all day. And do it with a smile and the happiest attitude in the world.
    - deleted 7y ago

A_No_Name_Mouse 7y ago

Good general advice, but I'm not sure if that would have made a difference in my case. I was a suspect already. Giving a statement didn't have any negative consequences for me. Maybe it prevented a raid like in the OP's case.

blackearl 7y ago
> whenever I buy some form of insurance, one of the questions is if I have ever been suspected of fraud. Answer yes and there's a good chance the insurer will refuse. Answer no, and I'm actually committing fraud and the insurance may not be valid. It's also inconvenient as the same question comes up during screening (I'm a security officer now). This seems like a negative consequence

supergirl 7y ago

sure, but what would have changed in this case? he was a already suspect before he talked to the police right?

rasz 7y ago
Lawyer would make him a witness.