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(Imagining "anti-diluvianist" ants cracked me up, especially because of the double pun.) Does that mean the ants were unable to communicate the upcoming danger

(Imagining "anti-diluvianist" ants cracked me up, especially because of the double pun.) Does that mean the ants were unable to communicate the upcoming danger to each other and had to rely on first-hand observation? That's surprising given how much they communicate otherwise.

CobrastanJorji 7y ago
Could be a security mechanism. Moving a queen would be risky. A large number of ants would be necessary to move the queen if she always resisted, which means a very small chance of false positives or a malicious mis-signal.
- harimau777 7y ago
  I suppose it also means that if she gets attacked half way through the move, then there will be lots of ants around to protect her.
monkeycantype 7y ago
I don’t know, but the way I thought about it is that I imagined each ant was quite simple, and the fight was a distributed mind weighing the sum of the fractions of reality perceived by each individual
- clairity 7y ago
  yes, and that’s basically the model of emergent behavior in many (all?) complex systems, such as human societies. the population exhibits properties that only some of the members exhibit, and some members diametrically oppose.
- ergothus 7y ago
  I saw a video quite a few years ago where they dump some ants on a platform, with a string leading to another platform with an area that (apparently) seemed like a decent home. (the below is according to my fallible memories) One ant wandered to the good area and checked it all out. She then marched back to the others, and bodily lifted another and took her to the good area. They both inspected the area and each repeated the trek to pull in another ant. This continued until "enough" ants were in the new area and they shifted into "build a nest" mode. It felt very oversimplified for TV viewers, but nonetheless was fascinating - a breakdown of just HOW some simple models can lead to more complex emergent behavior. I just tried to find this video without success (on the bright side, there are a ton of OTHER fascinating ant videos out there)
gowld 7y ago
Ants have very simple language. Sure they communicate danger, but how to choose among two dangerous options?
- ChainOfFools 7y ago
  And thus was born the byz-ant-ine generals' problem ...I'll show myself out
  - jancsika 7y ago
    Scouts attempt to synchronize a march with an obstinent queen who doesn't easily sign-off on the march. The only way they succeed is to do the enormous work required to carry the queen over to the point of synchronization. This way rogue ants can't destroy the colony without having 51% consensus on where to move the queen.
mikorym 7y ago
> Does that mean the ants were unable to communicate the upcoming danger to each other and had to rely on first-hand observation Humans can communicate with each other and yet they behave surprisingly similar to those ants and maybe also often need first-hand observation.
- MauranKilom 7y ago
  Here's an xkcd about exactly that: https://xkcd.com/1028/ https://xkcd.com/1028/

CobrastanJorji 7y ago

Could be a security mechanism. Moving a queen would be risky. A large number of ants would be necessary to move the queen if she always resisted, which means a very small chance of false positives or a malicious mis-signal.

harimau777 7y ago
I suppose it also means that if she gets attacked half way through the move, then there will be lots of ants around to protect her.

monkeycantype 7y ago

I don’t know, but the way I thought about it is that I imagined each ant was quite simple, and the fight was a distributed mind weighing the sum of the fractions of reality perceived by each individual

clairity 7y ago
yes, and that’s basically the model of emergent behavior in many (all?) complex systems, such as human societies. the population exhibits properties that only some of the members exhibit, and some members diametrically oppose.
ergothus 7y ago
I saw a video quite a few years ago where they dump some ants on a platform, with a string leading to another platform with an area that (apparently) seemed like a decent home. (the below is according to my fallible memories) One ant wandered to the good area and checked it all out. She then marched back to the others, and bodily lifted another and took her to the good area. They both inspected the area and each repeated the trek to pull in another ant. This continued until "enough" ants were in the new area and they shifted into "build a nest" mode. It felt very oversimplified for TV viewers, but nonetheless was fascinating - a breakdown of just HOW some simple models can lead to more complex emergent behavior. I just tried to find this video without success (on the bright side, there are a ton of OTHER fascinating ant videos out there)

gowld 7y ago

Ants have very simple language. Sure they communicate danger, but how to choose among two dangerous options?

ChainOfFools 7y ago
And thus was born the byz-ant-ine generals' problem ...I'll show myself out
- jancsika 7y ago
  Scouts attempt to synchronize a march with an obstinent queen who doesn't easily sign-off on the march. The only way they succeed is to do the enormous work required to carry the queen over to the point of synchronization. This way rogue ants can't destroy the colony without having 51% consensus on where to move the queen.

mikorym 7y ago

> Does that mean the ants were unable to communicate the upcoming danger to each other and had to rely on first-hand observation Humans can communicate with each other and yet they behave surprisingly similar to those ants and maybe also often need first-hand observation.

MauranKilom 7y ago
Here's an xkcd about exactly that: https://xkcd.com/1028/ https://xkcd.com/1028/