5 ms·

The code might be brilliant but the biggest obstacle to adoption is probably the name and the logo. All I can think is "beef begins to smell after a couple of

The code might be brilliant but the biggest obstacle to adoption is probably the name and the logo. All I can think is "beef begins to smell after a couple of weeks" and it's hard to overlook that mental imagery when evaluating the vast array of good options in the programming language space. It may also be considered culturally insensitive to a noticeable percentage of software engineers, which could hurt the adoption rate.

Chris2048 7y ago
> It may also be considered culturally insensitive Everyone has their opinion; If the author does not consider it culturally insensitive, then there is no problem. I think there may be a hidden benefit in pre-filtering the community for "developers who flip their shit over naming"..
- jedberg 7y ago
  > If the author does not consider it culturally insensitive, then there is no problem. The author can do what he wants, but if he wants adoption, then it would behoove him to consider cultural sensitivity, especially if it is offensive to enough people to stifle adoption.
  - Chris2048 7y ago
    In which case see paragraph 2
    - jedberg 7y ago
      I would say that paragraph 2 is completely wrong. Why would you want to filter out people who are culturally sensitive from your community? Because you don't want to have to consider alternate viewpoints?
      - Chris2048 7y ago
        You're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say "people who are culturally sensitive" - that wasn't my euphemism. Arguing over meat-related naming is exactly the kind of "alternative viewpoint" I have no time for, i.e I would say it's completely wrong.
        zozbot234 7y ago
        "Culturally sensitive" often turns into culturally oversensitive...
  - Fellshard 7y ago
    It would behoove the above poster to consider cultural sensitivity in selecting to use the word 'behoove', which contains 'hoove', which is a delicacy from cows in some cultures, as well. Many can play at this game.
    - Chris2048 7y ago
      And can I choose my own culture? Like say "this is what I endorse and believe in" and that be my culture? Or does this only apply to policically registered "-ism" classes (race, religion etc)? If so, I belong to the culture that considers it insensitive to shit on things for light-hearted naming themes as if they are of any relevance next to a million other adoption metrics that are more objective, assuming the author even cares to weigh adoption vs creative license in the first place.
    - jedberg 7y ago
      I chose that word on purpose.
  - blackearl 7y ago
    Catering to people that have those complaints sounds like a Sisyphean trek through hell
- GavinMcG 7y ago
  No one needs to "flip their shit" in order for it to be a bad name. I just don't like the sound of the word, for example, and that unpleasant feeling ends up tainting my opinion of the product. That's totally unfair, but it's how people work.
  - Chris2048 7y ago
    Tainting your opinion such that you don't adopt? If no, it has no effect, If yes, then either you didn't care much in the first place, or you are indeed, flipping your shit. And no one said it was a bad name, but that it could be considered culturally insensitive - two ambiguities away from actually being the thing it might considered to be.
mouldysammich 7y ago
I dont think "beef begins to smell" really matters all that much. CockroachDB has built its self a sizeable fortune, and its name is cockroach.
- dmux 7y ago
  Cockroaches are said to be able to survive a nuclear holocaust. I think it's a fitting name for something that's meant to be persistent.
- teach 7y ago
  It's a bit more than that. I'm a vegetarian, so obviously I have a bias, but I think it's objectively true that the beef industry in America is in a pretty bad place. I consider it "horrific", personally, though reasonable people disagree. Would "veal" be an acceptable name? When I think of eating beef in 2020, I think of a person whose freedom to eat whatever pleases them is more important than human health, suffering of intelligent animals and the environment. Allow me a bad analogy. If I interviewed someone for a senior engineering role but they went out of their way to mention that they had named one of their children "Stalin" -- that would be kind of a red flag for me. So to me, naming your pet project "Beef" is kind-of tone deaf at best. And at worst, it's thumbing your nose at political correctness: "Haha I named my project Beef because beef is great and fine and if you disagree you're thin-skinned and blindly following the crowd." I think the issue is a lot more complicated than that. Just my admittedly-biased two cents.
  - kgwgk 7y ago
    There is a Scheme implementation called Stalin. And another one called Chicken, which you may find even more disturbing than Beef.
    - downtide 7y ago
      There's Java and Javascript, heck, there is far worse out there.
  - Accacin 7y ago
Fellshard 7y ago
The phrase that comes to mind for me is 'show me the beef', which could actually play in its favor.
koboll 7y ago
Just append " lang" when you Google it. And I'm pretty sure religious food prohibitions don't generally extend to using software that happens to share a name with the prohibited food. This complaint makes the top 3 comments on every post about a new programming language. It's tiresome.
- downtide 7y ago
  Just rename it to Boof!
hak8or 7y ago
Emphasis on notable percentage. That percentage is likely so small that it is easily enough to ignore. It is also not close enough to a "protected class" under USA law (and I assume many other countries too), that is totally fine in the legal sense to ignore those people for the purpose of programming language awareness.
yters 7y ago
OTOH, its culturally inappropriate name might motivate adoption by the non-PC crowd...
- zem 7y ago
  if it's a gamedev language their primary audience is the PC crowd!
GordonS 7y ago
I'm a huge fan of C#, so this really caught my attention! But I also have to say that the name logo are... offputting. I don't know why exactly; I'm not a vegetarian or religious or anything like that, and the name doesn't bring anything negative in particular to mind (hell, I love eating beef!), but it just feels... wrong somehow.
- skohan 7y ago
  I am a carnivore, but the name rings pretty well for me. Beef is a simple food: it's not fancy and it doesn't need to be dressed up to be enjoyed. It's also enjoyable on a visceral level, and can hurt you if you're not careful with it. If this language lives up to promise it seems like it fits.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    Not sure where you live, but in Europe beef is expensive, certainly "simple food" is not the first thing that springs to mind! I'm sure I've read somewhere it's one of the more expensive meats to produce, per kg, especially compared to chicken and pigs.
    - skohan 7y ago
      Sure it's expensive, but by simple I mean it's probably one of the things a 5 year old could list if you asked them what kind of foods there are.
- somebodythere 7y ago
  It makes me feel like I should wash my hands with soap and water after handling.
wishinghand 7y ago
> All I can think is "beef begins to smell after a couple of weeks" I really don't think that many people would make that connection.
reaperducer 7y ago
It may also be considered culturally insensitive Is C# culturally insensitive to deaf programmers?
- phyrex 7y ago
  I’m nearsighted and feel offended by “see sharp”! /s

Chris2048 7y ago

> It may also be considered culturally insensitive Everyone has their opinion; If the author does not consider it culturally insensitive, then there is no problem. I think there may be a hidden benefit in pre-filtering the community for "developers who flip their shit over naming"..

jedberg 7y ago
> If the author does not consider it culturally insensitive, then there is no problem. The author can do what he wants, but if he wants adoption, then it would behoove him to consider cultural sensitivity, especially if it is offensive to enough people to stifle adoption.
- Chris2048 7y ago
  In which case see paragraph 2
  - jedberg 7y ago
    I would say that paragraph 2 is completely wrong. Why would you want to filter out people who are culturally sensitive from your community? Because you don't want to have to consider alternate viewpoints?
    - Chris2048 7y ago
      You're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say "people who are culturally sensitive" - that wasn't my euphemism. Arguing over meat-related naming is exactly the kind of "alternative viewpoint" I have no time for, i.e I would say it's completely wrong.
      - zozbot234 7y ago
        "Culturally sensitive" often turns into culturally oversensitive...
- Fellshard 7y ago
  It would behoove the above poster to consider cultural sensitivity in selecting to use the word 'behoove', which contains 'hoove', which is a delicacy from cows in some cultures, as well. Many can play at this game.
  - Chris2048 7y ago
    And can I choose my own culture? Like say "this is what I endorse and believe in" and that be my culture? Or does this only apply to policically registered "-ism" classes (race, religion etc)? If so, I belong to the culture that considers it insensitive to shit on things for light-hearted naming themes as if they are of any relevance next to a million other adoption metrics that are more objective, assuming the author even cares to weigh adoption vs creative license in the first place.
  - jedberg 7y ago
    I chose that word on purpose.
- blackearl 7y ago
  Catering to people that have those complaints sounds like a Sisyphean trek through hell
GavinMcG 7y ago
No one needs to "flip their shit" in order for it to be a bad name. I just don't like the sound of the word, for example, and that unpleasant feeling ends up tainting my opinion of the product. That's totally unfair, but it's how people work.
- Chris2048 7y ago
  Tainting your opinion such that you don't adopt? If no, it has no effect, If yes, then either you didn't care much in the first place, or you are indeed, flipping your shit. And no one said it was a bad name, but that it could be considered culturally insensitive - two ambiguities away from actually being the thing it might considered to be.

mouldysammich 7y ago

I dont think "beef begins to smell" really matters all that much. CockroachDB has built its self a sizeable fortune, and its name is cockroach.

dmux 7y ago
Cockroaches are said to be able to survive a nuclear holocaust. I think it's a fitting name for something that's meant to be persistent.
teach 7y ago
It's a bit more than that. I'm a vegetarian, so obviously I have a bias, but I think it's objectively true that the beef industry in America is in a pretty bad place. I consider it "horrific", personally, though reasonable people disagree. Would "veal" be an acceptable name? When I think of eating beef in 2020, I think of a person whose freedom to eat whatever pleases them is more important than human health, suffering of intelligent animals and the environment. Allow me a bad analogy. If I interviewed someone for a senior engineering role but they went out of their way to mention that they had named one of their children "Stalin" -- that would be kind of a red flag for me. So to me, naming your pet project "Beef" is kind-of tone deaf at best. And at worst, it's thumbing your nose at political correctness: "Haha I named my project Beef because beef is great and fine and if you disagree you're thin-skinned and blindly following the crowd." I think the issue is a lot more complicated than that. Just my admittedly-biased two cents.
- kgwgk 7y ago
  There is a Scheme implementation called Stalin. And another one called Chicken, which you may find even more disturbing than Beef.
  - downtide 7y ago
    There's Java and Javascript, heck, there is far worse out there.
- Accacin 7y ago

Fellshard 7y ago

The phrase that comes to mind for me is 'show me the beef', which could actually play in its favor.

koboll 7y ago

Just append " lang" when you Google it. And I'm pretty sure religious food prohibitions don't generally extend to using software that happens to share a name with the prohibited food. This complaint makes the top 3 comments on every post about a new programming language. It's tiresome.

downtide 7y ago
Just rename it to Boof!

hak8or 7y ago

Emphasis on notable percentage. That percentage is likely so small that it is easily enough to ignore. It is also not close enough to a "protected class" under USA law (and I assume many other countries too), that is totally fine in the legal sense to ignore those people for the purpose of programming language awareness.

yters 7y ago

OTOH, its culturally inappropriate name might motivate adoption by the non-PC crowd...

zem 7y ago
if it's a gamedev language their primary audience is the PC crowd!

GordonS 7y ago

I'm a huge fan of C#, so this really caught my attention! But I also have to say that the name logo are... offputting. I don't know why exactly; I'm not a vegetarian or religious or anything like that, and the name doesn't bring anything negative in particular to mind (hell, I love eating beef!), but it just feels... wrong somehow.

skohan 7y ago
I am a carnivore, but the name rings pretty well for me. Beef is a simple food: it's not fancy and it doesn't need to be dressed up to be enjoyed. It's also enjoyable on a visceral level, and can hurt you if you're not careful with it. If this language lives up to promise it seems like it fits.
- GordonS 7y ago
  Not sure where you live, but in Europe beef is expensive, certainly "simple food" is not the first thing that springs to mind! I'm sure I've read somewhere it's one of the more expensive meats to produce, per kg, especially compared to chicken and pigs.
  - skohan 7y ago
    Sure it's expensive, but by simple I mean it's probably one of the things a 5 year old could list if you asked them what kind of foods there are.
somebodythere 7y ago
It makes me feel like I should wash my hands with soap and water after handling.

wishinghand 7y ago

> All I can think is "beef begins to smell after a couple of weeks" I really don't think that many people would make that connection.

reaperducer 7y ago

It may also be considered culturally insensitive Is C# culturally insensitive to deaf programmers?

phyrex 7y ago
I’m nearsighted and feel offended by “see sharp”! /s