9 ms·

Battle of Alesia

77 points by JoelMcCracken 7y ago

davidw 7y ago
> The battle of Alesia marked the end of Gallic independence in France and Belgium. Well, not entirely... One small village of indomitable Gauls still holds out against the invaders.
- lukas099 7y ago
  Who?
  - michaelt 7y ago
    This is a quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix - the best selling French/Belgian comic, first published in 1959, translated into 111 languages, and adapted into 13 films. "The year is 50 BC. Gaul is entirely occupied by the Romans. Well, not entirely... One small village of indomitable Gauls still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the Roman legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Totorum, Aquarium, Laudanum and Compendium"
  - m_t 7y ago
    https://www.asterix.com/en/ https://www.asterix.com/en/
- the_af 7y ago
  And life is not easy for the Roman legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Totorum, Aquarium, Laudanum and Compendium. [1] [1] let's not get into this particular can of translating worms :P
- boudewijnrempt 7y ago
  The interesting bit about that is that "Alesia, and nobody knows where it is" as a theme in Asterix is actually biting satire on Vichy France. Very little in Asterix, until Goscinny died, is about Gauls and Romans, it's pretty much all about taking the mickey out of contemporary France.
  - the_af 7y ago
    Absolutely. But this was a surprise to me. I don't speak French and I read Asterix in my native Spanish as a young kid, I loved it to bits, and of course all modern and French-related jokes flew way over my head. Add to this that the Spanish (mis)translation got most of the jokes wrong, especially the puns. Some jokes were rendered nonsensical because the translator gave up and simply provided a literal translation. That Asterix can be badly translated and still be loved by a kid who can't read French or understand politics is a testament to how good the comic was.
    - tripa 7y ago
      Good translators manage to bring in jokes of their own.
      - the_af 7y ago
        I know. I'm saying the Spanish translation of Asterix is known to be problematic, because the translator often made no effort (as in "this is too hard, I'll just translate this literally, even though it was a phonetic joke in French that gets lost in Spanish"). In recent years there was an attempt to provide a more idiomatic and careful translation to Latin American Spanish, but it was poorly received, because people like me who loved Asterix as kids were already used to the original nonsensical translations and were appalled when jokes and names of characters got "changed"! So it's a lose-lose situation at this point.
- ivanhoe 7y ago
  On the subject of Alesia: https://www.pipelinecomics.com/asterix-v11-asterix-and-the-chieftains-shield/ https://www.pipelinecomics.com/asterix-v11-asterix-and-the-c...
  - the_af 7y ago
    To my eternal shame [1], this is how I first learned about Vercingetorix. To this day I choose to believe he really dropped his shield on top of Caesar's feet. [1] I'm actually proud of this!
    - dwd 7y ago
      Same, 90% of my knowledge about the Roman occupation of Gaul came from Asterix books.
srge 7y ago
In France, this event is well known and taught in class (at least it was in the 80's). As I remember it now, this was taught as a bittersweet moment in our history. We united, we were brave and fought a stronger army but still we were defeated and our chief was captured and killed by the enemy. As a result we were colonized and we lost almost all our Celtic culture (Celtic culture remains present notably in Bretagne — Britain). But we were "civilized" by the Romans. I think this was taught as being a tough but positive thing. Today I find it interesting to think about how "civilization" spreading if often a gruesome process and how it's seen centuries, if not (in this case), milleniums later.
- Athas 7y ago
  > As I remember it now, this was taught as a bittersweet moment in our history. We united, we were brave and fought a stronger army but still we were defeated and our chief was captured and killed by the enemy. Isn't modern France mostly a descendant of the Frankish kingdoms, where the Franks are quite different than the Gauls and in any case arrived in the area far later than the Battle of Alesia?
  - m_t 7y ago
    Of course, but a nation identity is built on more than just facts.
    - chimeracoder 7y ago
      > Of course, but a nation identity is built on more than just facts. In fact, a state's national identity is based on almost anything but facts.
  - smacktoward 7y ago
    Yes, but while in political terms the Gauls, Romans and Franks were distinct entities, in cultural terms the region was more of a melting pot. The Roman conquest of Gaul ended up blending their two cultures into a new, distinctive "Gallo-Roman" culture (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Roman_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Roman_culture), for instance, and then when the Franks came along their culture got blended in as well. So modern French identity has strains in it running back to all three sources.
vondur 7y ago
Not sure why this was posted here, but this is one of Caesar's greatest victories in the Gallic wars. The engineering capabilities of the Roman legions were very impressive. For those who don't know, Caesar had built a wall around the city of Alesia to blockade the defenders in. When a relief force was dispatched to attack the Romans and break the siege, Caesar built another wall and line of defenses to hold off the attacking relief force. The Romans were able to defeat the Gauls and add it to the Roman Empire (Republic).
jpmontez 7y ago
Historia Civilis has a video about this battle: https://youtu.be/SU1Ej9Yqt68 https://youtu.be/SU1Ej9Yqt68
- PopeDotNinja 7y ago
  I love that video and that channel!
- meerita 7y ago
  It's really good. I love HC.
- WD-42 7y ago
  Came here to share this link. I think Historia Civilis is a channel a lot of HNs would really enjoy.
  - simlevesque 7y ago
    My favorite youtube channel by far. It's always a good day when a new video is out.
nemo1618 7y ago
Reading this made me realize how little Roman history I know. What's the best source for learning about the major people and events of that era? EDIT: I guess what I'm really looking for is a hierarchy of topics, starting extremely broad (e.g. Roman Republic vs. Roman Empire) and drilling down into individual people and events. In other words, I want to do a breadth-first traversal, rather than depth-first.
- jjaredsimpson 7y ago
  I dunno about best, but History of Rome podcast is excellent if you like podcasts as a format. Covers 750bc up to 450ad. The coverage of punic wars, late republic, early empire, crisis of the third century are my favorite arcs.
- stygiansonic 7y ago
  Another comment mentioned it, but I like the Historia Civilis YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv_vLHiWVBh_FR9vbeuiY-A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv_vLHiWVBh_FR9vbeuiY-A After watching a video, you can then research further but generally I've found his videos have sufficient detail and are accurate.
- cfsc 7y ago
  The history of Rome podcast by Mike Duncan is a great place to start.
  - yazan94 7y ago
    I would second this route. Amazing and well researched podcast. Well worth it if you have the time
  - arrosenberg 7y ago
    Highly recommend this as well. His audiobook for the Storm before the Storm is also very good for the Republican period between the Gracchi and Marius/Sulla.
- doc_gunthrop 7y ago
hooande 7y ago
serious question, how is this interesting beyond "Caesar had a significant cavalry advantage"?
- JoelMcCracken 7y ago
  The siege works.
- greggyb 7y ago
  I think there's plenty interesting. The sophistication of Roman siege warfare. There is an entrenched enemy. Caesar's legions build miles of fortification to surround and starve out the enemy. Many more enemies come to break the siege. Caesar's legions build second miles long fortification, around the first. It is a defining moment in Caesar's rise to fame and infamy, laying the groundwork for his eventual emperorship. Without this victory and Caesar's popular support, the history of Rome may have been very different. There is a noble sacrifice by the Gallic general, Vercingetorix. Realizing the imminent defeat, he suggests to his people that they kill him or surrender him as a bargaining chip to receive lenience from the conquering Caesar. He does this knowing that the Roman tradition is to march defeated generals through the streets of Rome before ritually killing them. Turns out he got to be imprisoned for years before that "honor". These are the three things that stood out most to me.
  - kirrent 7y ago
    "laying the groundwork for his eventual emperorship". Worth pointing out that Julius Caesar was never emperor and its difficult to say that he really aspired to such a position. Yes, he was dictator for life but Sulla had fairly recently been appointed dictator with no time limit applied so that wasn't without precedent. Working out what could have happened of he hadn't been assassinated is difficult. Did he take on many of the trappings of a king? Yes. Did he seem to try and avoid that same perception, such as with the crown at Lupercalia? Also yes. Whatever he was though, he certainly was not emperor.
    - rurp 7y ago
      True, but you could say similar things about his successor Augustus. He was outwardly modest and merely referred to himself as "First Citizen", not dictator. But for all practical purposes he was an emperor that ruled for decades. There was a whole PR strategy related to this that went on for centuries. Many of the rulers after Julius Caesar talked about restoring power to senate and/or the citizens, and downplayed their own immense power, without actually doing much of anything to reduce it. That said, it's certainly possible that Julius Caesar could have followed a similar path to Sulla. He very well might have had every intention of relinquishing power after a certain point.
RmDen 7y ago
See also Hardcore History Episode 60 The Celtic Holocaust https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-holocaust/ https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-hol...
- JoelMcCracken 7y ago
  This is what prompted me to post this, I was listening to it and thought yinz might like it
PeterCorless 7y ago
How has no one pointed out this awesome boardgame yet? https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1430/caesar-epic-battle-alesia https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1430/caesar-epic-battle-...
- ryutin 7y ago
  This is one of my all time favorites. Is there a internet or computerized version of this yet ?
  - PeterCorless 7y ago
    http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Caesar:_Epic_Battle_of_Alesia http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Caesar:_Epic_Battle_...
    - so_tired 7y ago
      Amazing open source effort. My immediate thought is building an AI generic player that can train itself and play (most) of the games What r your opinions ?
      - PeterCorless 7y ago
        I just wonder if the AI would be easier to train for Rome or for the Gauls!
datavirtue 7y ago
Reenacted on Roman Empire on Netflix. A startling series. I became a huge fan of Julius Caesar. That guy was a freaking bad ass.
wefarrell 7y ago
To me the key takeaway of this is the desperation of the Gauls and the ruthlessness of the Romans. This part sums it up the best: "The inhabitants of the town sent out their wives and children to save food for the fighters, hoping that Caesar would take them as captives and feed them. However, Caesar forbade their being admitted to his fortification."
cellis 7y ago
There's a really good pro Age of Empires II battle where one of the players played this exact strategy. If you like strategy games you would enjoy the similarities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6spfnJMdd-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6spfnJMdd-k
roter 7y ago
The fifth book of Colleen McCullough's "Master of Rome" series covers the battle [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(McCullough_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(McCullough_novel)
axilmar 7y ago
As a young Greek, I had no idea the battle of Alesia was real. It was something that I read on Asterix, and since the name of the Gallic leader was Vercingetorix, I thought the entire thing was made up by Uderzo/Goscinny :-). Thanks to the internet though, I discovered the facts a few years after I have read the reference in the comic book. We know so little about our neighbours, about other countries!

77 points by JoelMcCracken 7y ago

> The battle of Alesia marked the end of Gallic independence in France and Belgium. Well, not entirely... One small village of indomitable Gauls still holds out against the invaders.

lukas099 7y ago
Who?
- michaelt 7y ago
  This is a quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix - the best selling French/Belgian comic, first published in 1959, translated into 111 languages, and adapted into 13 films. "The year is 50 BC. Gaul is entirely occupied by the Romans. Well, not entirely... One small village of indomitable Gauls still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the Roman legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Totorum, Aquarium, Laudanum and Compendium"
- m_t 7y ago
  https://www.asterix.com/en/ https://www.asterix.com/en/
the_af 7y ago
And life is not easy for the Roman legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Totorum, Aquarium, Laudanum and Compendium. [1] [1] let's not get into this particular can of translating worms :P
boudewijnrempt 7y ago
The interesting bit about that is that "Alesia, and nobody knows where it is" as a theme in Asterix is actually biting satire on Vichy France. Very little in Asterix, until Goscinny died, is about Gauls and Romans, it's pretty much all about taking the mickey out of contemporary France.
- the_af 7y ago
  Absolutely. But this was a surprise to me. I don't speak French and I read Asterix in my native Spanish as a young kid, I loved it to bits, and of course all modern and French-related jokes flew way over my head. Add to this that the Spanish (mis)translation got most of the jokes wrong, especially the puns. Some jokes were rendered nonsensical because the translator gave up and simply provided a literal translation. That Asterix can be badly translated and still be loved by a kid who can't read French or understand politics is a testament to how good the comic was.
  - tripa 7y ago
    Good translators manage to bring in jokes of their own.
    - the_af 7y ago
      I know. I'm saying the Spanish translation of Asterix is known to be problematic, because the translator often made no effort (as in "this is too hard, I'll just translate this literally, even though it was a phonetic joke in French that gets lost in Spanish"). In recent years there was an attempt to provide a more idiomatic and careful translation to Latin American Spanish, but it was poorly received, because people like me who loved Asterix as kids were already used to the original nonsensical translations and were appalled when jokes and names of characters got "changed"! So it's a lose-lose situation at this point.
ivanhoe 7y ago
On the subject of Alesia: https://www.pipelinecomics.com/asterix-v11-asterix-and-the-chieftains-shield/ https://www.pipelinecomics.com/asterix-v11-asterix-and-the-c...
- the_af 7y ago
  To my eternal shame [1], this is how I first learned about Vercingetorix. To this day I choose to believe he really dropped his shield on top of Caesar's feet. [1] I'm actually proud of this!
  - dwd 7y ago
    Same, 90% of my knowledge about the Roman occupation of Gaul came from Asterix books.

srge 7y ago

In France, this event is well known and taught in class (at least it was in the 80's). As I remember it now, this was taught as a bittersweet moment in our history. We united, we were brave and fought a stronger army but still we were defeated and our chief was captured and killed by the enemy. As a result we were colonized and we lost almost all our Celtic culture (Celtic culture remains present notably in Bretagne — Britain). But we were "civilized" by the Romans. I think this was taught as being a tough but positive thing. Today I find it interesting to think about how "civilization" spreading if often a gruesome process and how it's seen centuries, if not (in this case), milleniums later.

Athas 7y ago
> As I remember it now, this was taught as a bittersweet moment in our history. We united, we were brave and fought a stronger army but still we were defeated and our chief was captured and killed by the enemy. Isn't modern France mostly a descendant of the Frankish kingdoms, where the Franks are quite different than the Gauls and in any case arrived in the area far later than the Battle of Alesia?
- m_t 7y ago
  Of course, but a nation identity is built on more than just facts.
  - chimeracoder 7y ago
    > Of course, but a nation identity is built on more than just facts. In fact, a state's national identity is based on almost anything but facts.
- smacktoward 7y ago
  Yes, but while in political terms the Gauls, Romans and Franks were distinct entities, in cultural terms the region was more of a melting pot. The Roman conquest of Gaul ended up blending their two cultures into a new, distinctive "Gallo-Roman" culture (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Roman_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Roman_culture), for instance, and then when the Franks came along their culture got blended in as well. So modern French identity has strains in it running back to all three sources.

vondur 7y ago

Not sure why this was posted here, but this is one of Caesar's greatest victories in the Gallic wars. The engineering capabilities of the Roman legions were very impressive. For those who don't know, Caesar had built a wall around the city of Alesia to blockade the defenders in. When a relief force was dispatched to attack the Romans and break the siege, Caesar built another wall and line of defenses to hold off the attacking relief force. The Romans were able to defeat the Gauls and add it to the Roman Empire (Republic).

jpmontez 7y ago

Historia Civilis has a video about this battle: https://youtu.be/SU1Ej9Yqt68 https://youtu.be/SU1Ej9Yqt68

PopeDotNinja 7y ago
I love that video and that channel!
meerita 7y ago
It's really good. I love HC.
WD-42 7y ago
Came here to share this link. I think Historia Civilis is a channel a lot of HNs would really enjoy.
- simlevesque 7y ago
  My favorite youtube channel by far. It's always a good day when a new video is out.

nemo1618 7y ago

Reading this made me realize how little Roman history I know. What's the best source for learning about the major people and events of that era? EDIT: I guess what I'm really looking for is a hierarchy of topics, starting extremely broad (e.g. Roman Republic vs. Roman Empire) and drilling down into individual people and events. In other words, I want to do a breadth-first traversal, rather than depth-first.

jjaredsimpson 7y ago
I dunno about best, but History of Rome podcast is excellent if you like podcasts as a format. Covers 750bc up to 450ad. The coverage of punic wars, late republic, early empire, crisis of the third century are my favorite arcs.
stygiansonic 7y ago
Another comment mentioned it, but I like the Historia Civilis YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv_vLHiWVBh_FR9vbeuiY-A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv_vLHiWVBh_FR9vbeuiY-A After watching a video, you can then research further but generally I've found his videos have sufficient detail and are accurate.
cfsc 7y ago
The history of Rome podcast by Mike Duncan is a great place to start.
- yazan94 7y ago
  I would second this route. Amazing and well researched podcast. Well worth it if you have the time
- arrosenberg 7y ago
  Highly recommend this as well. His audiobook for the Storm before the Storm is also very good for the Republican period between the Gracchi and Marius/Sulla.
doc_gunthrop 7y ago

hooande 7y ago

serious question, how is this interesting beyond "Caesar had a significant cavalry advantage"?

JoelMcCracken 7y ago
The siege works.
greggyb 7y ago
I think there's plenty interesting. The sophistication of Roman siege warfare. There is an entrenched enemy. Caesar's legions build miles of fortification to surround and starve out the enemy. Many more enemies come to break the siege. Caesar's legions build second miles long fortification, around the first. It is a defining moment in Caesar's rise to fame and infamy, laying the groundwork for his eventual emperorship. Without this victory and Caesar's popular support, the history of Rome may have been very different. There is a noble sacrifice by the Gallic general, Vercingetorix. Realizing the imminent defeat, he suggests to his people that they kill him or surrender him as a bargaining chip to receive lenience from the conquering Caesar. He does this knowing that the Roman tradition is to march defeated generals through the streets of Rome before ritually killing them. Turns out he got to be imprisoned for years before that "honor". These are the three things that stood out most to me.
- kirrent 7y ago
  "laying the groundwork for his eventual emperorship". Worth pointing out that Julius Caesar was never emperor and its difficult to say that he really aspired to such a position. Yes, he was dictator for life but Sulla had fairly recently been appointed dictator with no time limit applied so that wasn't without precedent. Working out what could have happened of he hadn't been assassinated is difficult. Did he take on many of the trappings of a king? Yes. Did he seem to try and avoid that same perception, such as with the crown at Lupercalia? Also yes. Whatever he was though, he certainly was not emperor.
  - rurp 7y ago
    True, but you could say similar things about his successor Augustus. He was outwardly modest and merely referred to himself as "First Citizen", not dictator. But for all practical purposes he was an emperor that ruled for decades. There was a whole PR strategy related to this that went on for centuries. Many of the rulers after Julius Caesar talked about restoring power to senate and/or the citizens, and downplayed their own immense power, without actually doing much of anything to reduce it. That said, it's certainly possible that Julius Caesar could have followed a similar path to Sulla. He very well might have had every intention of relinquishing power after a certain point.

RmDen 7y ago

See also Hardcore History Episode 60 The Celtic Holocaust https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-holocaust/ https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-hol...

JoelMcCracken 7y ago
This is what prompted me to post this, I was listening to it and thought yinz might like it

PeterCorless 7y ago

How has no one pointed out this awesome boardgame yet? https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1430/caesar-epic-battle-alesia https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1430/caesar-epic-battle-...

ryutin 7y ago
This is one of my all time favorites. Is there a internet or computerized version of this yet ?
- PeterCorless 7y ago
  http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Caesar:_Epic_Battle_of_Alesia http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Caesar:_Epic_Battle_...
  - so_tired 7y ago
    Amazing open source effort. My immediate thought is building an AI generic player that can train itself and play (most) of the games What r your opinions ?
    - PeterCorless 7y ago
      I just wonder if the AI would be easier to train for Rome or for the Gauls!

datavirtue 7y ago

Reenacted on Roman Empire on Netflix. A startling series. I became a huge fan of Julius Caesar. That guy was a freaking bad ass.

wefarrell 7y ago

To me the key takeaway of this is the desperation of the Gauls and the ruthlessness of the Romans. This part sums it up the best: "The inhabitants of the town sent out their wives and children to save food for the fighters, hoping that Caesar would take them as captives and feed them. However, Caesar forbade their being admitted to his fortification."

cellis 7y ago

There's a really good pro Age of Empires II battle where one of the players played this exact strategy. If you like strategy games you would enjoy the similarities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6spfnJMdd-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6spfnJMdd-k

roter 7y ago

The fifth book of Colleen McCullough's "Master of Rome" series covers the battle [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(McCullough_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(McCullough_novel)

axilmar 7y ago

As a young Greek, I had no idea the battle of Alesia was real. It was something that I read on Asterix, and since the name of the Gallic leader was Vercingetorix, I thought the entire thing was made up by Uderzo/Goscinny :-). Thanks to the internet though, I discovered the facts a few years after I have read the reference in the comic book. We know so little about our neighbours, about other countries!