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I think you're confusing two things - the "nonstop hobbyist programmer" and "the person with provable excellence in their field". My contention is that a lot of

I think you're confusing two things - the "nonstop hobbyist programmer" and "the person with provable excellence in their field". My contention is that a lot of the motivation for a nonstop hobbyist programmer is that contributions you do at work are often buried in closed-source projects, or, even if in open-source projects, are relegated to some corner of some huge project. Or both! So it's hard to prove that you're really any good. By contrast, if you initiated a project and have a public profile - whether in your spare hours or in your day job - you have demonstrated something and you will command a premium. I think conflating these two attributes is dangerous as it suggests that the best way of dealing with it is overwork (i.e. "add another job to my job") rather than negotiation (i.e. "try to figure out how at least some of my day job isn't just work that 'vanishes into the BigCo closed source void'"). That might mean a hard negotiation, or even switching jobs, but it's a lot more time-effective than starting your second shift at 5pm.

glangdale 7y ago
I should note that first - saying you're "confusing" is a bit obnoxious and I should have said "conflating" throughout, which is what I meant - and second - nothing I said is meant to imply that "nonstop hobbyist programmers" is somehow disjoint with "the person with provable excellence in their field".
jasode 7y ago
>I think you're confusing two things [...] I think conflating these two attributes is dangerous as it suggests that the best way of dealing with it is overwork (i.e. "add another job to my job") No, you're misinterpreting what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting to anyone to artificially create the appearances of the passionate weekend hobbyist programmer by adding more undesirable after-hours programming work. Doing anything like that is unsustainable and will just make one miserable. The 2 types of programmers I have in my head are these: (1) the programmer who genuinely treats coding as "play", a "game", a source of "joy" such that coding only at a 9-to-5 job is not enough of an outlet to express his true self. For this type of person, programming is more like "art" such as playing guitar or painting. Therefore, constantly creating new side projects on github during non-work hours is a completely natural way of spending free time. (2) the programmer who treats coding as a "job". Sure, the programmer may also "like" to code but only up to the limits of a 9-to-5 job. The programmer would rather do something else after 5pm and the weekends such as hiking or taking kids to soccer games. The so-called "problem" is that the group (2) programmers feel it's unfair that so many influential companies and hiring managers in the industry prefer group (1). My point is that this blog post doesn't address that. Just exclaiming "it's ok to code only at work" is just preaching to the choir instead of educating you on the underlying industry forces that can make one doubt that self-affirmation. Again, the real affirmation should be: It's ok to let other employers prefer the extra-curricular programmers so don't let it bother you if you _sometimes_ lose jobs to them. That's the affirmation that would explicitly highlight what the tension is about: You want to restrict yourself to programming only 9-to-5 for your mental health but the software industry -- which you don't control -- doesn't want to cooperate with your ideals for a balanced life! Many people in the tech industry have hiring preferences and this blog essay doesn't change that. You can either let that irritate you -- or -- you can be at peace with it. As others said, the best you can do is try to find employers that align with your work/life preferences.
- Nursie 7y ago
  The point should also be that the programmer in (1) may not actually be any better for your business than the one in (2), and the programmer in (2) may be doing it because they think they have to, and may be a burnout as a result.
- glangdale 7y ago
  OK, I now understand what you're saying. That being said, I don't believe you - I don't think someone in your category (1) has all that much of an advantage over someone in my "your achievements are publicly known and not locked away in someone's proprietary code base" category. I think most of the "passion programmers" advantages are due to how public their achievements are, not due to the fact that they are putting in more than the 9-to-5. Further, most of the people I've met in this category don't have particularly interesting or programming intensive 9-to-5s, which is how they can have the appetite to program in the evenings. Back during the most intensive period of working on Hyperscan, when we were really doing tons of interesting stuff during the day, I had zero interest in going home and doing Even More coding on some other project. It would have been seriously reaching into the "You Are No Longer Productive" number of hours/week.

glangdale 7y ago

I should note that first - saying you're "confusing" is a bit obnoxious and I should have said "conflating" throughout, which is what I meant - and second - nothing I said is meant to imply that "nonstop hobbyist programmers" is somehow disjoint with "the person with provable excellence in their field".

jasode 7y ago

>I think you're confusing two things [...] I think conflating these two attributes is dangerous as it suggests that the best way of dealing with it is overwork (i.e. "add another job to my job") No, you're misinterpreting what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting to anyone to artificially create the appearances of the passionate weekend hobbyist programmer by adding more undesirable after-hours programming work. Doing anything like that is unsustainable and will just make one miserable. The 2 types of programmers I have in my head are these: (1) the programmer who genuinely treats coding as "play", a "game", a source of "joy" such that coding only at a 9-to-5 job is not enough of an outlet to express his true self. For this type of person, programming is more like "art" such as playing guitar or painting. Therefore, constantly creating new side projects on github during non-work hours is a completely natural way of spending free time. (2) the programmer who treats coding as a "job". Sure, the programmer may also "like" to code but only up to the limits of a 9-to-5 job. The programmer would rather do something else after 5pm and the weekends such as hiking or taking kids to soccer games. The so-called "problem" is that the group (2) programmers feel it's unfair that so many influential companies and hiring managers in the industry prefer group (1). My point is that this blog post doesn't address that. Just exclaiming "it's ok to code only at work" is just preaching to the choir instead of educating you on the underlying industry forces that can make one doubt that self-affirmation. Again, the real affirmation should be: It's ok to let other employers prefer the extra-curricular programmers so don't let it bother you if you _sometimes_ lose jobs to them. That's the affirmation that would explicitly highlight what the tension is about: You want to restrict yourself to programming only 9-to-5 for your mental health but the software industry -- which you don't control -- doesn't want to cooperate with your ideals for a balanced life! Many people in the tech industry have hiring preferences and this blog essay doesn't change that. You can either let that irritate you -- or -- you can be at peace with it. As others said, the best you can do is try to find employers that align with your work/life preferences.

Nursie 7y ago
The point should also be that the programmer in (1) may not actually be any better for your business than the one in (2), and the programmer in (2) may be doing it because they think they have to, and may be a burnout as a result.
glangdale 7y ago
OK, I now understand what you're saying. That being said, I don't believe you - I don't think someone in your category (1) has all that much of an advantage over someone in my "your achievements are publicly known and not locked away in someone's proprietary code base" category. I think most of the "passion programmers" advantages are due to how public their achievements are, not due to the fact that they are putting in more than the 9-to-5. Further, most of the people I've met in this category don't have particularly interesting or programming intensive 9-to-5s, which is how they can have the appetite to program in the evenings. Back during the most intensive period of working on Hyperscan, when we were really doing tons of interesting stuff during the day, I had zero interest in going home and doing Even More coding on some other project. It would have been seriously reaching into the "You Are No Longer Productive" number of hours/week.