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One of my Computer Science lecturers had a rule: use Vim for all development for his class whilst on campus, and if caught using any other editor/IDE – or commi

One of my Computer Science lecturers had a rule: use Vim for all development for his class whilst on campus, and if caught using any other editor/IDE – or committing any artifacts showing evidence of such – we would lose several percentage points from our final mark for his class. Harsh? Perhaps. But I can’t thank that lecturer enough for that rule. He converted a mostly IDE-wielding class into one that actually appreciated Vim, and most of us still use it or its key bindings. Edit: this was in 2018, when VS Code, etc. were already popular.

hwestiii 7y ago
This is more or less what I did, but under my own motivation. I charged myself to do all my CS homework in vi and had a copy of O'Reilly's Linux in a Nutshell at my side. It didn't take more than a couple of semesters and I didn't need the book at all.
manmademagic 7y ago
Had the same thing when I was studying CompSci. Ended up spending more time configuring vim than doing the work I was supposed to do. Even did the completely pointless exercise of making custom syntax highlighting for the pseudocode language we had to use.
- joncrane 7y ago
  This prepared you for the 'real world' better than any programming lessons could!
- Aperocky 7y ago
  Once configured vim works fine. I probably spend 1-2 hour/day in vim for my personal projects but haven’t configured anything in months.
  - manmademagic 7y ago
    I think I had most things working properly within the first few days, but kept customizing and changing settings/fonts/themes/plugins. Mostly procrastinating by pretending I was "Being Productive"
ChrisRR 7y ago
That's stupid and elitist. There's no reason to force students to go against IDEs that they're already used to, but also the general method of navigating around a computer which they're probably used to from MS Word etc.
- RandomException 7y ago
  I've found myself learning stuff better when there is no IDE correcting me all the time and auto-generating stuff out of thin air. IDEs are awesome once you know what you're doing but I do also see the reasoning for forcing to use an ancient (and still quite powerful) editor. Disclaimer: I do most of my coding in Vim but use IDEs every once and a while.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- na85 7y ago
  I disagree completely. When I took CS036 in first year engineering, it was a C++ course that used Visual Studio and while I received a good grade on that course, at the end of it I did not know how to invoke the compiler from the command line. I only knew how to build software from the drop down menu in VS2004 or whatever version it was. IDEs are a crutch.
  - bradstewart 7y ago
    Sure, but invoking a compiler from a command line is something you can easily pick up from a coworker or an internet tutorial. The primary focus of an intro engineering course is (usually) about the theory and structure of computing, along with general techniques for writing code. Learning about various build tools distracts from that focus. EDIT: Also, you seem to be implying (apologies if I'm wrong) that invoking a compiler from a command line is somehow "better" than using IDE. Why?
    - Skunkleton 7y ago
      My intro course used BlueJ, which is (was?) some sort of dumbed down Java IDE specifically for students. The thought was that dealing with all of the crap surrounding software development, like make systems, editors, compiler flags, etc was a distraction from learning basic programming constructs. Looking back I agree completely. As a new programmer, things like compiler flags are pretty much black magic. You don't really learn anything by reciting magic spells. Learning development tools like the CLI, IDEs, debuggers, linters, et. al. should be required for a CS degree. I don't think an intro course is the right setting.
barkingcat 7y ago
In 2018 - this is so bad that it deserves some kind of disciplinary measure from administration. This is absolutely unacceptable for students needing different accessibility enabled tools other than vi /vim. For example, if using an alternative screenreader or a vocally/sound enabled ide or if needing to interact with a text editor via a brail enabled tool that doesn't work with vi, does the student just get failed out? That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.
- aquova 7y ago
  ...This is a bit of an overreaction. I think it's safe to say that the professor won't fail any blind students simply on the basis of being unable to use Vim.
- kick 7y ago
  ex, something that comes with every installation of vi, is completely accessible.
  - JdeBP 7y ago
    Some of the vi clones do not have an ex mode, note. NeoVIM has neither ex nor open modes, for example.
Aperocky 7y ago
He should at least allow emacs. He might find my vim configuration looks a lot like an IDE with almost 60% of feature of one. (Except compile, I like to use command line for that)
iamaelephant 7y ago
Love to trap my students in the 90s and pretend no progress has been made on editors since.
filmgirlcw 7y ago
I'm glad you had a good experience with this, but I can tell you right now that if I had a professor insist I couldn't use my own tools for his class out of what appears to be nothing more than "you will use what I force you to use because I believe only REAL programmers use vim," I would be the type of student who would take great pleasure in using my text editor of choice discretely and doing whatever I could to ensure there was no proof that I was using my tools of choice. I'm fine if a professor wants to say "we're not using IDEs, we're using text editors in this class and this is why" -- but to dictate the editor would be akin to being told what type of pencil or pen I could use to take hand-written notes. It reminds me of one of my writing professors who insisted that all papers presented to him be formatted in Arial. Arial is a bad font, so I asked if I could use the metrically identical Helvetica, and he refused. I still submitted my papers in Helvetica anyway and he never noticed. (I'm not claiming this is a mature response, FWIW, but a core part of my personality naturally pushes back on anyone telling me I can't use something for a wholly arbitrary reason or because they want to enact a ridiculous level of control.)
- yebyen 7y ago
  I am a Vim user, and if I had a group leader tell me that I had to use some different editor because we are all learning how to do this job together, and that learning how to use the editor properly was part of learning how to do the job, I would do what he says. At least for as long as he stays in the room... On the other hand, we had an architect who has since retired that said, if it was up to him, all developers across the campus would use the same programming language, editor, and configuration. Thankfully it was not up to him, and we still have this lovely diversity of opinions and tools that signals it is encouraged for specializations to develop, thus making sure that we are not all replaceable cogs in an exceedingly boring machine. But the memory of this man's twisted vision remains with me, and it strikes me that the leadership still would seem to prefer if we were in fact fungible units of work-capacity, without any distinctive features or unique characteristics differentiating us from other developers. IMO if you learned to ensure there was no proof of different tools, you learned an equally valuable lesson; I would mark you down for example if I opened your file and found a bunch of CRLF line endings, or some other similar obvious linting violation that was prevented by an editor configuration you were supposed to have installed during the class. But if you applied enough attention to detail to make sure this was not possible, in a way you got the point (and also for the purposes of the grade, you definitely got the point!)
swiley 7y ago
Honestly I really hate being forced to use any particular piece of software and I love vim! I'm really happy my algorithms professor let me use Makefiles and vim even though the standard tool at the university was (blegh!!!) visual studio.
danShumway 7y ago
Everything I'm about to say, I say as a Vim/Evil user who avoids IDEs like the plague. I like Vim. I like composing commands on the fly, I like modular editing, I like that I can magically format CSV files with quick macros, and I like jumping around my editor like I'm Spider-Man. Heck, I swapped out my window manager with EXWM and Evil just so I could use Vim-style modular commands everywhere. But learning Vim isn't related to learning how to program. In that context, it's a pointless distraction. Be honest -- when was the last time that you or anyone you know had a programming assignment at work and came back to scrum a week later saying, "I'd have finished this, but navigating around my editor just took up too much time?" >95% of programming is going to be bottle-necked by the speed you think, not the speed at which you can edit text. So it's like forcing all of your students to learn Dvorak, or to submit all their written work in cursive. Undoubtedly a few students will thank you for it at the end of the class because some people do get real value out of learning those skills -- but just as many of them will say you wasted their time, and they'll be right. I write in cursive too; it's an objectively faster, more pleasant way to take handwritten notes. That doesn't mean that learning cursive has anything to do with learning to write books. To any professors on HN reading this: if you're teaching a programming class, please teach programming. Because if students just wanted to learn something new, or to be forced to struggle with something outside of their comfort zones, there are a lot of cheaper ways than college they could do that. Even with that goal -- a programming professor can't come up with any outside-the-box assignments more related to their subject than "learn Vim"? I can't fathom that kind of lack of creativity in a field this broad.
vidarh 7y ago
I'd have taken the loss in mark on principle over something like that.
lasagnaphil 7y ago
I used to be a vim evangelist before, but after seeing some of the people at my lab writing code as fast as me in Sublime Text, I’ve decided not to participate in editor wars anymore.

hwestiii 7y ago

This is more or less what I did, but under my own motivation. I charged myself to do all my CS homework in vi and had a copy of O'Reilly's Linux in a Nutshell at my side. It didn't take more than a couple of semesters and I didn't need the book at all.

manmademagic 7y ago

Had the same thing when I was studying CompSci. Ended up spending more time configuring vim than doing the work I was supposed to do. Even did the completely pointless exercise of making custom syntax highlighting for the pseudocode language we had to use.

joncrane 7y ago
This prepared you for the 'real world' better than any programming lessons could!
Aperocky 7y ago
Once configured vim works fine. I probably spend 1-2 hour/day in vim for my personal projects but haven’t configured anything in months.
- manmademagic 7y ago
  I think I had most things working properly within the first few days, but kept customizing and changing settings/fonts/themes/plugins. Mostly procrastinating by pretending I was "Being Productive"

ChrisRR 7y ago

That's stupid and elitist. There's no reason to force students to go against IDEs that they're already used to, but also the general method of navigating around a computer which they're probably used to from MS Word etc.

RandomException 7y ago
I've found myself learning stuff better when there is no IDE correcting me all the time and auto-generating stuff out of thin air. IDEs are awesome once you know what you're doing but I do also see the reasoning for forcing to use an ancient (and still quite powerful) editor. Disclaimer: I do most of my coding in Vim but use IDEs every once and a while.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
na85 7y ago
I disagree completely. When I took CS036 in first year engineering, it was a C++ course that used Visual Studio and while I received a good grade on that course, at the end of it I did not know how to invoke the compiler from the command line. I only knew how to build software from the drop down menu in VS2004 or whatever version it was. IDEs are a crutch.
- bradstewart 7y ago
  Sure, but invoking a compiler from a command line is something you can easily pick up from a coworker or an internet tutorial. The primary focus of an intro engineering course is (usually) about the theory and structure of computing, along with general techniques for writing code. Learning about various build tools distracts from that focus. EDIT: Also, you seem to be implying (apologies if I'm wrong) that invoking a compiler from a command line is somehow "better" than using IDE. Why?
  - Skunkleton 7y ago
    My intro course used BlueJ, which is (was?) some sort of dumbed down Java IDE specifically for students. The thought was that dealing with all of the crap surrounding software development, like make systems, editors, compiler flags, etc was a distraction from learning basic programming constructs. Looking back I agree completely. As a new programmer, things like compiler flags are pretty much black magic. You don't really learn anything by reciting magic spells. Learning development tools like the CLI, IDEs, debuggers, linters, et. al. should be required for a CS degree. I don't think an intro course is the right setting.

barkingcat 7y ago

In 2018 - this is so bad that it deserves some kind of disciplinary measure from administration. This is absolutely unacceptable for students needing different accessibility enabled tools other than vi /vim. For example, if using an alternative screenreader or a vocally/sound enabled ide or if needing to interact with a text editor via a brail enabled tool that doesn't work with vi, does the student just get failed out? That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

aquova 7y ago
...This is a bit of an overreaction. I think it's safe to say that the professor won't fail any blind students simply on the basis of being unable to use Vim.
kick 7y ago
ex, something that comes with every installation of vi, is completely accessible.
- JdeBP 7y ago
  Some of the vi clones do not have an ex mode, note. NeoVIM has neither ex nor open modes, for example.

Aperocky 7y ago

He should at least allow emacs. He might find my vim configuration looks a lot like an IDE with almost 60% of feature of one. (Except compile, I like to use command line for that)

iamaelephant 7y ago

Love to trap my students in the 90s and pretend no progress has been made on editors since.

filmgirlcw 7y ago

I'm glad you had a good experience with this, but I can tell you right now that if I had a professor insist I couldn't use my own tools for his class out of what appears to be nothing more than "you will use what I force you to use because I believe only REAL programmers use vim," I would be the type of student who would take great pleasure in using my text editor of choice discretely and doing whatever I could to ensure there was no proof that I was using my tools of choice. I'm fine if a professor wants to say "we're not using IDEs, we're using text editors in this class and this is why" -- but to dictate the editor would be akin to being told what type of pencil or pen I could use to take hand-written notes. It reminds me of one of my writing professors who insisted that all papers presented to him be formatted in Arial. Arial is a bad font, so I asked if I could use the metrically identical Helvetica, and he refused. I still submitted my papers in Helvetica anyway and he never noticed. (I'm not claiming this is a mature response, FWIW, but a core part of my personality naturally pushes back on anyone telling me I can't use something for a wholly arbitrary reason or because they want to enact a ridiculous level of control.)

yebyen 7y ago
I am a Vim user, and if I had a group leader tell me that I had to use some different editor because we are all learning how to do this job together, and that learning how to use the editor properly was part of learning how to do the job, I would do what he says. At least for as long as he stays in the room... On the other hand, we had an architect who has since retired that said, if it was up to him, all developers across the campus would use the same programming language, editor, and configuration. Thankfully it was not up to him, and we still have this lovely diversity of opinions and tools that signals it is encouraged for specializations to develop, thus making sure that we are not all replaceable cogs in an exceedingly boring machine. But the memory of this man's twisted vision remains with me, and it strikes me that the leadership still would seem to prefer if we were in fact fungible units of work-capacity, without any distinctive features or unique characteristics differentiating us from other developers. IMO if you learned to ensure there was no proof of different tools, you learned an equally valuable lesson; I would mark you down for example if I opened your file and found a bunch of CRLF line endings, or some other similar obvious linting violation that was prevented by an editor configuration you were supposed to have installed during the class. But if you applied enough attention to detail to make sure this was not possible, in a way you got the point (and also for the purposes of the grade, you definitely got the point!)

swiley 7y ago

Honestly I really hate being forced to use any particular piece of software and I love vim! I'm really happy my algorithms professor let me use Makefiles and vim even though the standard tool at the university was (blegh!!!) visual studio.

danShumway 7y ago

Everything I'm about to say, I say as a Vim/Evil user who avoids IDEs like the plague. I like Vim. I like composing commands on the fly, I like modular editing, I like that I can magically format CSV files with quick macros, and I like jumping around my editor like I'm Spider-Man. Heck, I swapped out my window manager with EXWM and Evil just so I could use Vim-style modular commands everywhere. But learning Vim isn't related to learning how to program. In that context, it's a pointless distraction. Be honest -- when was the last time that you or anyone you know had a programming assignment at work and came back to scrum a week later saying, "I'd have finished this, but navigating around my editor just took up too much time?" >95% of programming is going to be bottle-necked by the speed you think, not the speed at which you can edit text. So it's like forcing all of your students to learn Dvorak, or to submit all their written work in cursive. Undoubtedly a few students will thank you for it at the end of the class because some people do get real value out of learning those skills -- but just as many of them will say you wasted their time, and they'll be right. I write in cursive too; it's an objectively faster, more pleasant way to take handwritten notes. That doesn't mean that learning cursive has anything to do with learning to write books. To any professors on HN reading this: if you're teaching a programming class, please teach programming. Because if students just wanted to learn something new, or to be forced to struggle with something outside of their comfort zones, there are a lot of cheaper ways than college they could do that. Even with that goal -- a programming professor can't come up with any outside-the-box assignments more related to their subject than "learn Vim"? I can't fathom that kind of lack of creativity in a field this broad.

vidarh 7y ago

I'd have taken the loss in mark on principle over something like that.

lasagnaphil 7y ago

I used to be a vim evangelist before, but after seeing some of the people at my lab writing code as fast as me in Sublime Text, I’ve decided not to participate in editor wars anymore.