7 ms·

It is perfectly OK to only code at work, you can have a life too

104 points by techtor 7y ago

cygned 7y ago
The reason I code outside work is that I have the freedom to tinker around. I also recommend to do that. In my opinion, the more you challenge your knowledge and opinion by trying something new, the better you become at your profession.
- Ballas 7y ago
  Exactly. Having such a passion for what you do that you want to do it on your own time, creates a positive feedback loop, making the whole experience a lot more enjoyable.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  > I also recommend to do that. In my opinion, the more you challenge your knowledge and opinion by trying something new, the better you become at your profession. Why should I spend my free time to be a better wageslave? If I have projects that I like to work on for myself, then sure, I may do some coding. However, there's no chance in hell I'll give up my free time to improve my value to an employer.
  - PaulRobinson 7y ago
    You're free to make that choice, but had you considered the better you become at your profession: a) your side projects will become better and more likely to free you from being a "wage slave"; and b) if you improve your value to your employer you will get better offers and likely able to negotiate either better pay or more PTO or reduced hours without compromising your income? For me - and many others - I think people who enjoy coding are those best suited to working in the profession. If you genuinely feel like you're being asked to do things you resent doing _all the time_, you should ask yourself whether you wouldn't be happier doing something else.
    - AllegedAlec 7y ago
      Programming isn't inherently different from any other profession. We don't expect builders to keep constructing houses in their free time in order to become better at our jobs, so why do we recommend programmers to do this?
      - Hamuko 7y ago
        Pretty sure there are other professions that require the employees to do something outside of the job in order to perform at the job. Firefighters for example need to stay in top physical condition. I imagine that's not possible without some sacrifices outside of your work schedule.
  - Drakar1903 7y ago
    >Why should I spend my free time to be a better wageslave? Because if they lead to a higher salary and you can keep your spending habits the same, you have an option of having a stronger safety net, an option to retire at 45 instead of 65, an option to see Java the island and not only Java the programming language.
    - saiya-jin 7y ago
      Apart from that retiring at 45 (more like 60, no problem with that), all those can be had while having tons of free time for other hobbies, adventures, or more importantly family and friends. If you have kids, those years not spent with them will never come back. Nobody dying is proud how hard they worked and how much they increased their market value.
      - thaumasiotes 7y ago
        > Nobody dying is proud how hard they worked and how much they increased their market value. I'm 100% confident that this is false.
    - AllegedAlec 7y ago
      > a stronger safety net I live in a country where a strong safety net is the (current) default. > an option to retire at 45 instead of 65 Retiring early is only a viable option if you do so in good physical and mental health. I'd rather spend my free time keeping myself in both, and retiring at 55. This is still entirely doable; even with the outrageous rent of where I currently live, I'm still able to save a third of my net wages, while not living very frugally.
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    >Why should I spend my free time to be a better wageslave? Did you ever get a formal education?
Ballas 7y ago
Of course it is. People are different. I personally enjoy having personal projects that are somewhat related to work, and help me develop a skill that I will most likely need in a couple of months for work. It also takes a lot of stress off work and makes it more enjoyable when you have experience in something before you need it. But I understand that other people might require less exercise than I do.
- marcyb5st 7y ago
  How do you keep yourself motivated? I tried that many times, but in the end I abandon a lot of these side projects. I might have a jolt of good-will when starting, but when that fades I come home from work with my brain semi-fried and feel like engaging in mindless activities or some sport.
  - PaulRobinson 7y ago
    You just haven't found the right side-project yet. If you don't feel motivated to work on it, don't work on it. It's better for your mental health to just not do the work if you don't want to - it's not like chores or getting some exercise.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    See my reply above. Another advantage of doing “personal work projects” - projects that no one asked for but would be useful - is that you have a built in audience and you know other people will be looking at it. You can also put it down in your review and on your resume. Someone is going to value it. Either your current employee or a future employee.
  - iSnow 7y ago
    I don't care a lot about the graveyard of abandoned projects I have created - I love the the dopamine release of starting the next world-domination project. But I also contribute to existing open-source projects, and that is code that hopefully will stay. I find working in an existing project really gives you a different perspective - you work towards a release, you coordinate with other people, you see different coding styles...
tsukurimashou 7y ago
Considering the amount of people in this industry that don't know what they are doing, sure it is "OK". Just don't be surprised that people doing code outside of work will probably get better jobs / get hired more easily. Some people are really passionate about the field, and don't really see it as "working" I think it is important for these people to have both professional projects and personal ones. But like a lot of people that are passionate about something, a few of them will end up being light years ahead of people just doing it for money, or seeing it as a "regular job" just like any other job.
- emsy 7y ago
  It’s really weird if you think about it. The ratio of people that do work related activities in their free time seems rather high for programmers. On the other hand, we are plagued with opportunists that want a high paying job and don’t know what they’re doing.
  - collyw 7y ago
    If you look at it from a hobbies / interests point of view, coding is one of the few hobbies where there are a lot of jobs around and well paid ones at that. Professional sports are a hobby that for some sports is very well paid, but the competition is way harder and the jobs available far less.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Not really. The trick is to always work for a company using marketable tech. Once you’ve been in the field for awhile, you can find a job where the “must haves” are things you are good at and the “nice to haves” are things you want to learn. Because salary compression and inversion are real, you will probably have to keep job hopping.
- hvidgaard 7y ago
  I'm skeptical about that, because I've lost count of people coding outside of their programming job that have no clue on how to produce reasonable code. Perhaps it sounds good to potential employers that they code in their spare time, but it's not an indication of competency in my experience.
meesterdude 7y ago
keep telling yourself that. in 2020, it's all about the hustle.
- dbbk 7y ago
  There is not one one-size-fits-all approach.
- welly 7y ago
  I've been working as a web developer since 1994. I've done my time, now my evenings and weekends are for me.
- SirHound 7y ago
  You're in for a rude awakening later in life.
skocznymroczny 7y ago
I have a problem, in that I don't only code at work. I actually code quite often outside of work, but I mostly play with some ideas or implement some simple prototypes for games, websites or stuff I am into. But I never really build a product or anything that I'd be proud enough to show in a portfolio, so from a hiring perspective it's as if I didn't code at home at all.
- kennydude 7y ago
  There's nothing wrong with including those things in a portfolio at all. You don't need to only list sellable or fully usable products in a portfolio
- iSnow 7y ago
  Participating in an existing open-source project can help, as you can contribute as long as you are into it and simply drop out once you stop caring. Your contribution will live on regardless and you can at least show some pull requests and created/solved issues.
- wccrawford 7y ago
  As someone who has interviewed a lot of people, those projects do count. If you're leaving them out of your job applications, you're probably hurting your prospects. I'd say to describe them exactly as you have here. The very fact that you're motivated enough to do them is a point in your favor, and if the code looks decent, that's more points. If I compared you to someone else with the same resume, I'd hire you over them.
- gurkendoktor 7y ago
  > so from a hiring perspective it's as if I didn't code at home at all Even if you don't list them - the knowledge gained from these projects can still shine through in technical interviews, and you can list more languages and frameworks on your CV.
jasode 7y ago
>, it is perfectly OK to have a life outside of work. Yes, of course it's perfectly ok to have a life of not programming outside of work. But these types of articles are always missing the point: it's not all about your inner feelings but about the _others_ you don't control who value passion programmers more than 9-to-5 programmers. If you truly want to be at peace with this blog's advice, what you're really saying is that you acknowledge that many companies, hiring managers, startups, etc value the nonstop hobbyist programmer but don't care. On the other hand, many 9-to-5 programmers who want to compartmentalize their coding to work hours feel resentment and unfairness that many in the business world prefer the passion programmers with side projects, github contributions, hackathon competitions, etc. This blog post will do nothing to convince those hiring managers to treat the 9-to-5 programmer and the weekend programmer as exactly equal. That's unrealistic.
- neuronic 7y ago
  Life should NEVER be about others who randomly value some ephemeral stuff that has no bigger meaning to you. NEVER. Your life should be about what YOU value. If you want to work at a company which carefully selects for "passion programmers" you will hopefully also value that life style and it will be a natural match. If you value programming to that extent you will naturally be driven to do that and that's beautiful but not a life plan for everyone in IT. Life is hard enough in all of its aspects - no one has the obligation to serve some sort of purpose that somebody pulled out of their ass since most of use probably don't live in Zerg states like China or North Korea where the consequence is some sort of punishment. I strongly recommend that people live according to what they value themselves instead of making some billionaire richer in trade for burnout and your own well-being. People must survive and some just want to get done their 9am-5pm shift everyday to get the bills paid because moving to a job that you love may even be impossible for some. THAT'S FINE. People aren't obligated to work with a true fire of passion for Hewlett-Packard or burn with life and energy when programming the next ad-tracking feature for Facebook.
  - matz1 7y ago
    I agree but then you must acknowledge that by chosing to restrict yourself, you may lose competitive edge againts those who have no such restriction.
logicallee 7y ago
(Edited for clarity.) Many of the most famous coders aren't just coders, but supercoders. Because software has a marginal cost of 0 (development cost rather than per unit manufacturing cost) there is pressure to become a supercoder. I have an analogy for this: Think of the life of a supermodel. Not just a normal model, but a supermodel. If you want to be a supermodel, I believe it's not enough to just diet while you're at work, and come 5 p.m. or the end of a shoot start gorging on chips, sugary beverages, fast food, candy bars and ice cream until shooting starts the next day. Instead I believe a supermodel is on a "diet" all the time, through their whole career; it's part of their lifestyle. They wouldn't be a supermodel if it weren't. Analogies are leaky but could this be true for "supercoders" too? Maybe a supercoder is not going to be able to clock out at 5 p.m. and not think about or touch code until the next day. Maybe it is a lifestyle. It seems clear that there are "supercoders", such as Linus Torvalds or John Carmack in the world. Are there any who don't have coding as a "lifestyle" and who just coded a few hours a day while they built their careers as a supercoder? As with being a supermodel, not everyone needs to be a supercoder, even to be a professional coder, and that's okay. However, I think supermodels are more beautiful than everyday people, and supercoders code better than the average coder, too. They command different salaries, dictated by supply and demand.
- modo_mario 7y ago
  A rather bad analogy. Super models are not unique in that they take their work home and watch their diet, their skin, etc Plenty of regular models and people that you'll find putting in the same or more. Sure they maximised their chance of success by putting in this effort and by getting out there, etc but that the end of the day they were still lucky with their features, who they met, that persons preferences, etc. As far as the actual topic goes. Sure there is pressure to become a super-coder and again there's some prerequisites like high intelligence but also drive that stems from passion and the ability to focus for extended periods of time. Is one of those things not found either naturally or because he's boxed into some employee role that coder isn't necessarily bad but unlikely to reach that status and is just gonna burn out.
- vi-mode 7y ago
  Maybe your analogy is not the best but you made a good point and I'd agree.
tybit 7y ago
One more factor I think should be taken into account is how much learning people get out of their work. 40 hours of meaningful work pays off tremendously IME, unfortunately it’s quite easy to be doing closer to 0 hours of meaningful work than 40.
77544cec 7y ago
I code a lot, work 70h per week and am looking for a job. Contrary to 9-to-5 programmers I have built really complex systems (like a debugger or a sql engine). I can find an optimal solution in 10 minutes for almost any code wars challenge > 4 kyu. Who is hiring ?
- 77544cec 7y ago
  Oh and I never downvote
- 77544cec 7y ago
  Actually I'm considering dropping out of the industry and starting a crime career. I have been in touch with someone who'd be interested in operating drones to deliver haschich from Morocco to Spain.
- lawn 7y ago
  > Contrary to 9-to-5 programmers I have built really complex systems Those programmers have also built really complex systems, including a debugger and a sql engine. And many of those don't sound like an ass either, hence the downvotes.
  - 77544cec 7y ago
    Yeah I always sound like an ass this is why I have a lot of problem finding a job. However once I'm hired I really do work 70h a week for 38k€ (per year, yes) but still am treated like a piece of shit (the reason for that is pure discrimantion but I won't dwelve into this). Then I leave, and they ask me to come back, still treating me like a dog. I wan to kill myself and I want to kill you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axWt4HVT7iY&t=3m57s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axWt4HVT7iY&t=3m57s
fimdomeio 7y ago
It's ok to do whatever you want to do. To me it's important to pursue other interests and do little code outside working hours. Maybe I'll not be as good of a coder but I'll be a better person overall, and for me, that's the point of all the effort. I'm really curious about people claiming to work more than 40h a week. How much of those hours are productive work? Are they really any more productive than anyone working less hours? Do they all eventually burn out? Are they happy?
k_sze 7y ago
I’m now a tech lead and I don’t code much even at work, but I still don’t have a life - no friend, no real hobby. Haha
- mikekchar 7y ago
  Just random advice: feel free to pick a hobby randomly. My friend did that and I thought it very strange, but he committed himself to it and eventually really enjoyed it. Not only that, but he met a lot of people and eventually met his wife that way. It sounds weird, but if you aren't particularly passionate about something, it's a bit easier to pick a hobby because you can choose anything. Based on my friend's example, I decided to pick cooking as a hobby -- because who doesn't want good food. It's still the thing I do whenever I'm stressed out and just want to relax. It's a very strange thing.
  - k_sze 7y ago
    You misunderstand. I have no life because I’m married and have two kids.
mattlutze 7y ago
Developers need to code after-hours in order to stay competitive in part because our industry enables businesses to not to provide continual learning time during an employee's workday. If you had, say, 20% of your work week to practice on skills, technologies, patterns or ideas that weren't a direct deliverable: would the average you still feel compelled to spend so much of your free time additionally practicing skills (ultimately to the benefit of your employer)? We bemoan the scourge of scope creep and the waste of mass meetings. Businesses demanding only short-term saleable output from developers is another drag on sustainable productivity.
- anoplus 7y ago
  > Developers need to code after-hours in order to stay competitive Which I think is an interesting social problem, where people feel uncomfortable not working after-hours because others do. I am a developer. I began a secret personal experiment where I do the opposite. I take 20% of my working hours for personal development without anyone knowing. I want to see if I actually become better professional. It takes great discipline for me in the face of pressure. I keep work related tasks out of my free time to minimum. I am not always succeed in taking entire 20% time to be honest. I also try to take short breaks to avoid burn-out.
- Nursie 7y ago
  > Developers need to code after-hours in order to stay competitive I don't think this is true. The technology does not actually move that fast and you can keep up to date in work time by making sure you get on to projects and teams that stretch and educate you.
- collyw 7y ago
  That's just rubbish. Sure the fashion show continues, with its constant churn and in order to keep up with that churn you probably need to keep on learning in your spare time. But most problems could be solved far more simply if people put a bit of forethought in rather than chasing fads. Does every website benefit from being a SPA. Do you really need all the kubernetes and docker containers? Realistically how much are you going to scale? Here is an example: https://adamdrake.com/command-line-tools-can-be-235x-faster-than-your-hadoop-cluster.html https://adamdrake.com/command-line-tools-can-be-235x-faster-...
peterburkimsher 7y ago
I write programs for fun. I build hardware for fun. I also travel, go to church, listen to music, go to concerts, cook, volunteer for NGOs, participate in CouchSurfing, ride a bicycle, take photos, play games, study, parapente, ski, hike, and swim for fun, and somehow even have the time to sit back and watch a beautiful sunset when there is one. I don't watch TV, drink, rarely watch movies or YouTube, though sometimes play AoE. Ideas come all the time, usually from those other areas of life. When I have a new idea, it makes a mess all over my browser tabs and desktop while I read all about how to implement it (data sources, existing projects). The idea consumes my thoughts. I talk about it to people who I meet. When I should be praying, I'm thinking about the algorithm. The obsession is probably rather weird to non-technical people, like my long-distance girlfriend. If I'm in the office but haven't got any pressing deadlines for company work, I'll do some coding on my side project. It's not usually something that can make money, though it is usually educational. I want to be able to publish it on my Github, although I often procrastinate writing the documentation. Some companies (e.g. Google) say that they support innovation, but they want to own all my intellectual property, and that means that I'm not allowed to pursue ideas while working there. I've avoided such companies for specifically that reason. When I finally do write it up, my software Show HN will sometimes get onto the Hacker News front page, or hardware on Hackaday. Very rarely, someone might see that and offer me a job. I suppose that's the reason I've written less documentation these days; I'm waiting until I hear a visa result and then I'll know about which country I should be working in. My ideas don't make money. I'm probably the only user. Yet in practice, side projects have helped me build up a code base that I can use for all programming tasks, including at work. In case you're wondering what kind of ideas these are, here's a small sample from the last year: EspUSB WiFi keyboard manufacturing, 12V and mains to USB adaptor inside a car form factor, WiFi to VGA on an ESP8266 for PPT slides, Fondant (JavaScript bookmarklet to load pdfjs library to open a PDF file to run a self-contained web app stored as PDF attachments), MySpace Dragon Hoard by country/language/genre for learning languages through music, a Chinese/English chatbot based on song lyrics to automatically write love letters. I don't judge people who only code as work; they're better at making money than me, and are definitely more likely to be promoted to management and have a good career. All these other things inspire me in a way that LeetCode just doesn't. Therefore other people get interviews much more easily, and know how to sell themselves. I'm bad at front-end design, so as a portfolio most of these look like rubbish. When I have a job (like now!), I don't need to worry about food and shelter, and the rest of things in life mean I'm quite happy, really. Being contented means I'm not interested in the "hustle", so I'll never make as much money and I know it, but that isn't important to me. I hope this resonates with some other passion-programmers, and I'd like to hear any opposing or similar perspectives.
kstenerud 7y ago
There are lots of things it's perfectly fine to do or not do; that's not the issue. When it comes to competition, you must take advantage of every edge you can get. And when you're seeking a position, you ARE in competition. As an individual, there are a number of edges that you can leverage to your benefit: raw talent, acquired skills, shipped products, your network, and politics. Which ones you build and practice is your own affair, but for your future's sake at least build SOME of them.
Nursie 7y ago
I find that middle answer a little objectionable - Some of the best developers I've ever worked with do very little coding outside of office hours. They all had a passion for it, and they tended to do some goal-oriented projects outside of work time now and again, but not be constantly hustling a side project or attempting to pick up a ton of new skills every single evening. The implication that you can't be the best unless you're dedicating another 20-30 hours a week on top of your day-job is just wrong. And the idea that throwing another 20-30 hours a week outside your day job at coding will make you better at it than someone that doesn't also isn't really borne out by experience. You can be passionate but have other hobbies and your own life away from the screen. The passion is the important thing. (OK, and the skill, you need an aptitude for this stuff)
finnjohnsen2 7y ago
Just stop it. It's OK not to have hobby coding projects, yes, but the opposite is also OK. When I play with e.g. Arduino, game programming or some random tech - this is in-fact my break from work. It's 100% driven by fun and play, so don't tell me I have no life please.
jonny383 7y ago
It is what it is, really. Some of my colleagues cringe at the thought of touching a computer either after hours or on the weekend. Others literally spend their entire 16 awake-hours on computers (not necessarily just programming, but a large majority are doing technical side projects, etc). Is there a difference in their work output? Absolutely there is, in my experience here. Contrary to my prior assumptions, it is actually the _die hard_ tech guys that - Produce excellent work - Produce a consistent amount of work over long periods - Keep up to date with tech - Don't really seem to suffer "burnout" - Consistently improve their skills and progress their careers - Have a high probability of being enthusiastic about a new project, technology or their work Where as the ones who are "work-only" programmers (not always) tend to - Produce excellent work in short bursts, and then average work the rest of the time - Do not produce consistent amounts of work over long periods - Not only struggle to keep up with tech, but actively _fight_ the idea of having to learn something new - Have a high probability of going to management to discuss their "burnout" and take extra time off - Seem to have one specialized skill set that neither improves nor gets worse - they just float around the same level - Rarely show enthusiasm for a new project, technology of their work People often refer to "burnout" in the context as a short term solution - but I honestly think that "burnout" as we know it is a result of someone who has already "checked out" or "lost the passion" for what they do (or perhaps, they never had it, and just went into this career for other reasons) This seems really grim for the non _die hard_ people, so here's some positive traits I've seen in them that are usually lacking in the _die hard_ people. - Typically have much better communication skills - Usually better at reasoning for which technology to use in a project (ignore "language or framework of the week") - Are better with customers and maintaining relations - Provide more support to their colleagues - Willingness to take on different kinds of tasks (no attitude of "that's not my job") I think it's fair to say that balance is key between these very dynamic cultural traits we observe as programmers. EDIT: formatting
- fsloth 7y ago
  It's okay not to be passionate about new technologies. From CS point of view it's all turtles down and you can implement the same algorithms and datastructures on pretty much on any language. Being to enthused about new technology is my jaded eyes perhaps a negative trait. New is not always better. Better is better, and if it's better, then it's better - not just because it's new. From business point of view caring actually about the domain after you know how to program is much more important than caring deeply about the implementation language or platform. Programs in the office are developed to help end users in their work. That's what matters - solving the end users problem and making their life more productive. Not doing it on the latest and greates language version.
ArcMex 7y ago
But I like coding at home after coding at work :)
glangdale 7y ago
The tragedy of this is, as other commenters have noted, that many workplaces don't offer much opportunity for developers to improve their skills in a general sense ("you'll learn exactly what you need for success at FoobarCorp by working on FoobarCorp projects!"). Couple this with our field's aggressive skepticism that anyone really knows how to program, regardless of prior achievements ("reverse a linked list, you big fat liar who lies") you've got a powerful motivation to ensure that you can work outside of your long-term work projects. Because, let's be frank, a lot of us, after spending a lot of time hacking on some particular system, really get serious atrophy in our abilities to work with a clean sheet. There was a point where I would have been able to confidently bang out some bizarre NFA graph or SIMD algorithm in Hyperscan from memory but would have been hard-pressed to remember how to open a file in C++ and read from it... A compromise would be to constantly look for opportunities to extend what you do (in terms of range, public visibility, etc) at work. If you can't, you run the serious risk that any evidence that some significant work was yours will be hidden away (unless you're working on open source) from the perspective of any future employer. This may be a point of negotiation with your current or future employer - you may have to put your hand up and say "I want to do something public facing" (i.e. "I want to spend X% of my time as a developer evangelist" or "I want to do our blog on Y" or "I think we should open-source part Z and I'll lead it"). Obviously these things are not magically easy, especially the more junior you are. I drove the process of open-sourcing Hyperscan (not for the reasons in this post but for other strategic reasons) and that was a pretty hefty process and a big ask, even for a senior person.
stared 7y ago
Speaking as a person with (way too) many side projects, I think that it may be wise to code only at work. Quite a few very productive people, who work during work, and then later - do something different (so not "coding another app", or even other ways of spending time with a computer). It seems to be healthier long term - I met much fewer burnouts among them. It is not binary - such people do once in a while time to learn something new. But it is very different from having a "second job". ... At the same time, I don't know many companies that do like side projects (well, some offer non-negotiable contracts de facto forbidding them, vide Google). If a company looks for a person with inner passion, usually it is a hope to channel it into company's work, to get (instead of a 9-5 worker) a 9-9 worker. The best companies I worked for do not interfere with someone's side projects.
seanwilson 7y ago
People say to avoid Facebook + Instagram because seeing lots of posts that exaggerate or distort the positives and play down the negatives of life is bad for your mental health. I think this should be applied to tech community posts as well - you don't need to be working at a big tech company, be a millionaire, have your own successful solo project etc. to be happy with life. Constantly comparing yourself to other people is a fast path to unhappiness.
dr-detroit 7y ago
When will people learn its not about what you do its how you brag. Nobody is going to come to your house and check your hobby stuff just have something on github and/or something to take to an interview. Braggarts succeed. All others perish.
thiht 7y ago
Does the title try to imply that having a life and coding at home are incompatible? Maybe just try to stop shaming people who enjoy coding at home, for a while? I have no idea why this rhetoric is considered ok.
DERRICKBRIAN 7y ago
IF YOU WANTS TO JOIN ILLUMINATE BROTHER HOOD MAKE SURE YOU'RE LOYAL AND SERIOUS MINDED INDIVIDUAL. I wanna give a concise testimony of how I became rich and famous Read and pay keen interest..... We all underestimate the opportunity that comes across us in life, waking up to see a testimony like this is a blessing no man can pay for. Ten years ago, I feed from hand to mouth but today am a bonafide member of ILLUMINATE BROTHER HOOD, it's a dream come true. Back before I got initiated, I have always been curious to join the hood until I came across a testimony online about the illuminate and I decided to make a bold step by following its instructions, lol and behold am a proud member of the hood and ready to help whosoever that's willing to join the hood. Before I left you with the link , let me quickly drop you a tips of your benefits as a new member of the hood. Regardless of your professions, the hood will stand firm and support you with it, all that is expected of you, is your loyalty. And after your initiation, you will be awarded immediately with your benefits such as you desired, that's is to say , the illuminate hood gives benefits according to your wish and desires. As a matter of fact, the hood always welcome, serious and loyal new members that wants to join. So therefore, make sure you're interested before you emails us at initiationhoodofilluminate@gmail.com but you can still call the office line on +1(202) 750-0111 for further information.

104 points by techtor 7y ago

The reason I code outside work is that I have the freedom to tinker around. I also recommend to do that. In my opinion, the more you challenge your knowledge and opinion by trying something new, the better you become at your profession.

Ballas 7y ago
Exactly. Having such a passion for what you do that you want to do it on your own time, creates a positive feedback loop, making the whole experience a lot more enjoyable.
AllegedAlec 7y ago
> I also recommend to do that. In my opinion, the more you challenge your knowledge and opinion by trying something new, the better you become at your profession. Why should I spend my free time to be a better wageslave? If I have projects that I like to work on for myself, then sure, I may do some coding. However, there's no chance in hell I'll give up my free time to improve my value to an employer.
- PaulRobinson 7y ago
  You're free to make that choice, but had you considered the better you become at your profession: a) your side projects will become better and more likely to free you from being a "wage slave"; and b) if you improve your value to your employer you will get better offers and likely able to negotiate either better pay or more PTO or reduced hours without compromising your income? For me - and many others - I think people who enjoy coding are those best suited to working in the profession. If you genuinely feel like you're being asked to do things you resent doing _all the time_, you should ask yourself whether you wouldn't be happier doing something else.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    Programming isn't inherently different from any other profession. We don't expect builders to keep constructing houses in their free time in order to become better at our jobs, so why do we recommend programmers to do this?
    - Hamuko 7y ago
      Pretty sure there are other professions that require the employees to do something outside of the job in order to perform at the job. Firefighters for example need to stay in top physical condition. I imagine that's not possible without some sacrifices outside of your work schedule.
- Drakar1903 7y ago
  >Why should I spend my free time to be a better wageslave? Because if they lead to a higher salary and you can keep your spending habits the same, you have an option of having a stronger safety net, an option to retire at 45 instead of 65, an option to see Java the island and not only Java the programming language.
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    Apart from that retiring at 45 (more like 60, no problem with that), all those can be had while having tons of free time for other hobbies, adventures, or more importantly family and friends. If you have kids, those years not spent with them will never come back. Nobody dying is proud how hard they worked and how much they increased their market value.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      > Nobody dying is proud how hard they worked and how much they increased their market value. I'm 100% confident that this is false.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    > a stronger safety net I live in a country where a strong safety net is the (current) default. > an option to retire at 45 instead of 65 Retiring early is only a viable option if you do so in good physical and mental health. I'd rather spend my free time keeping myself in both, and retiring at 55. This is still entirely doable; even with the outrageous rent of where I currently live, I'm still able to save a third of my net wages, while not living very frugally.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  >Why should I spend my free time to be a better wageslave? Did you ever get a formal education?

Ballas 7y ago

Of course it is. People are different. I personally enjoy having personal projects that are somewhat related to work, and help me develop a skill that I will most likely need in a couple of months for work. It also takes a lot of stress off work and makes it more enjoyable when you have experience in something before you need it. But I understand that other people might require less exercise than I do.

marcyb5st 7y ago
How do you keep yourself motivated? I tried that many times, but in the end I abandon a lot of these side projects. I might have a jolt of good-will when starting, but when that fades I come home from work with my brain semi-fried and feel like engaging in mindless activities or some sport.
- PaulRobinson 7y ago
  You just haven't found the right side-project yet. If you don't feel motivated to work on it, don't work on it. It's better for your mental health to just not do the work if you don't want to - it's not like chores or getting some exercise.
- scarface74 7y ago
  See my reply above. Another advantage of doing “personal work projects” - projects that no one asked for but would be useful - is that you have a built in audience and you know other people will be looking at it. You can also put it down in your review and on your resume. Someone is going to value it. Either your current employee or a future employee.
- iSnow 7y ago
  I don't care a lot about the graveyard of abandoned projects I have created - I love the the dopamine release of starting the next world-domination project. But I also contribute to existing open-source projects, and that is code that hopefully will stay. I find working in an existing project really gives you a different perspective - you work towards a release, you coordinate with other people, you see different coding styles...

tsukurimashou 7y ago

Considering the amount of people in this industry that don't know what they are doing, sure it is "OK". Just don't be surprised that people doing code outside of work will probably get better jobs / get hired more easily. Some people are really passionate about the field, and don't really see it as "working" I think it is important for these people to have both professional projects and personal ones. But like a lot of people that are passionate about something, a few of them will end up being light years ahead of people just doing it for money, or seeing it as a "regular job" just like any other job.

emsy 7y ago
It’s really weird if you think about it. The ratio of people that do work related activities in their free time seems rather high for programmers. On the other hand, we are plagued with opportunists that want a high paying job and don’t know what they’re doing.
- collyw 7y ago
  If you look at it from a hobbies / interests point of view, coding is one of the few hobbies where there are a lot of jobs around and well paid ones at that. Professional sports are a hobby that for some sports is very well paid, but the competition is way harder and the jobs available far less.
scarface74 7y ago
Not really. The trick is to always work for a company using marketable tech. Once you’ve been in the field for awhile, you can find a job where the “must haves” are things you are good at and the “nice to haves” are things you want to learn. Because salary compression and inversion are real, you will probably have to keep job hopping.
hvidgaard 7y ago
I'm skeptical about that, because I've lost count of people coding outside of their programming job that have no clue on how to produce reasonable code. Perhaps it sounds good to potential employers that they code in their spare time, but it's not an indication of competency in my experience.

meesterdude 7y ago

keep telling yourself that. in 2020, it's all about the hustle.

dbbk 7y ago
There is not one one-size-fits-all approach.
welly 7y ago
I've been working as a web developer since 1994. I've done my time, now my evenings and weekends are for me.
SirHound 7y ago
You're in for a rude awakening later in life.

skocznymroczny 7y ago

I have a problem, in that I don't only code at work. I actually code quite often outside of work, but I mostly play with some ideas or implement some simple prototypes for games, websites or stuff I am into. But I never really build a product or anything that I'd be proud enough to show in a portfolio, so from a hiring perspective it's as if I didn't code at home at all.

kennydude 7y ago
There's nothing wrong with including those things in a portfolio at all. You don't need to only list sellable or fully usable products in a portfolio
iSnow 7y ago
Participating in an existing open-source project can help, as you can contribute as long as you are into it and simply drop out once you stop caring. Your contribution will live on regardless and you can at least show some pull requests and created/solved issues.
wccrawford 7y ago
As someone who has interviewed a lot of people, those projects do count. If you're leaving them out of your job applications, you're probably hurting your prospects. I'd say to describe them exactly as you have here. The very fact that you're motivated enough to do them is a point in your favor, and if the code looks decent, that's more points. If I compared you to someone else with the same resume, I'd hire you over them.
gurkendoktor 7y ago
> so from a hiring perspective it's as if I didn't code at home at all Even if you don't list them - the knowledge gained from these projects can still shine through in technical interviews, and you can list more languages and frameworks on your CV.

jasode 7y ago

>, it is perfectly OK to have a life outside of work. Yes, of course it's perfectly ok to have a life of not programming outside of work. But these types of articles are always missing the point: it's not all about your inner feelings but about the _others_ you don't control who value passion programmers more than 9-to-5 programmers. If you truly want to be at peace with this blog's advice, what you're really saying is that you acknowledge that many companies, hiring managers, startups, etc value the nonstop hobbyist programmer but don't care. On the other hand, many 9-to-5 programmers who want to compartmentalize their coding to work hours feel resentment and unfairness that many in the business world prefer the passion programmers with side projects, github contributions, hackathon competitions, etc. This blog post will do nothing to convince those hiring managers to treat the 9-to-5 programmer and the weekend programmer as exactly equal. That's unrealistic.

neuronic 7y ago
Life should NEVER be about others who randomly value some ephemeral stuff that has no bigger meaning to you. NEVER. Your life should be about what YOU value. If you want to work at a company which carefully selects for "passion programmers" you will hopefully also value that life style and it will be a natural match. If you value programming to that extent you will naturally be driven to do that and that's beautiful but not a life plan for everyone in IT. Life is hard enough in all of its aspects - no one has the obligation to serve some sort of purpose that somebody pulled out of their ass since most of use probably don't live in Zerg states like China or North Korea where the consequence is some sort of punishment. I strongly recommend that people live according to what they value themselves instead of making some billionaire richer in trade for burnout and your own well-being. People must survive and some just want to get done their 9am-5pm shift everyday to get the bills paid because moving to a job that you love may even be impossible for some. THAT'S FINE. People aren't obligated to work with a true fire of passion for Hewlett-Packard or burn with life and energy when programming the next ad-tracking feature for Facebook.
- matz1 7y ago
  I agree but then you must acknowledge that by chosing to restrict yourself, you may lose competitive edge againts those who have no such restriction.

logicallee 7y ago

(Edited for clarity.) Many of the most famous coders aren't just coders, but supercoders. Because software has a marginal cost of 0 (development cost rather than per unit manufacturing cost) there is pressure to become a supercoder. I have an analogy for this: Think of the life of a supermodel. Not just a normal model, but a supermodel. If you want to be a supermodel, I believe it's not enough to just diet while you're at work, and come 5 p.m. or the end of a shoot start gorging on chips, sugary beverages, fast food, candy bars and ice cream until shooting starts the next day. Instead I believe a supermodel is on a "diet" all the time, through their whole career; it's part of their lifestyle. They wouldn't be a supermodel if it weren't. Analogies are leaky but could this be true for "supercoders" too? Maybe a supercoder is not going to be able to clock out at 5 p.m. and not think about or touch code until the next day. Maybe it is a lifestyle. It seems clear that there are "supercoders", such as Linus Torvalds or John Carmack in the world. Are there any who don't have coding as a "lifestyle" and who just coded a few hours a day while they built their careers as a supercoder? As with being a supermodel, not everyone needs to be a supercoder, even to be a professional coder, and that's okay. However, I think supermodels are more beautiful than everyday people, and supercoders code better than the average coder, too. They command different salaries, dictated by supply and demand.

modo_mario 7y ago
A rather bad analogy. Super models are not unique in that they take their work home and watch their diet, their skin, etc Plenty of regular models and people that you'll find putting in the same or more. Sure they maximised their chance of success by putting in this effort and by getting out there, etc but that the end of the day they were still lucky with their features, who they met, that persons preferences, etc. As far as the actual topic goes. Sure there is pressure to become a super-coder and again there's some prerequisites like high intelligence but also drive that stems from passion and the ability to focus for extended periods of time. Is one of those things not found either naturally or because he's boxed into some employee role that coder isn't necessarily bad but unlikely to reach that status and is just gonna burn out.
vi-mode 7y ago
Maybe your analogy is not the best but you made a good point and I'd agree.

tybit 7y ago

One more factor I think should be taken into account is how much learning people get out of their work. 40 hours of meaningful work pays off tremendously IME, unfortunately it’s quite easy to be doing closer to 0 hours of meaningful work than 40.

77544cec 7y ago

I code a lot, work 70h per week and am looking for a job. Contrary to 9-to-5 programmers I have built really complex systems (like a debugger or a sql engine). I can find an optimal solution in 10 minutes for almost any code wars challenge > 4 kyu. Who is hiring ?

77544cec 7y ago
Oh and I never downvote
77544cec 7y ago
Actually I'm considering dropping out of the industry and starting a crime career. I have been in touch with someone who'd be interested in operating drones to deliver haschich from Morocco to Spain.
lawn 7y ago
> Contrary to 9-to-5 programmers I have built really complex systems Those programmers have also built really complex systems, including a debugger and a sql engine. And many of those don't sound like an ass either, hence the downvotes.
- 77544cec 7y ago
  Yeah I always sound like an ass this is why I have a lot of problem finding a job. However once I'm hired I really do work 70h a week for 38k€ (per year, yes) but still am treated like a piece of shit (the reason for that is pure discrimantion but I won't dwelve into this). Then I leave, and they ask me to come back, still treating me like a dog. I wan to kill myself and I want to kill you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axWt4HVT7iY&t=3m57s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axWt4HVT7iY&t=3m57s

fimdomeio 7y ago

It's ok to do whatever you want to do. To me it's important to pursue other interests and do little code outside working hours. Maybe I'll not be as good of a coder but I'll be a better person overall, and for me, that's the point of all the effort. I'm really curious about people claiming to work more than 40h a week. How much of those hours are productive work? Are they really any more productive than anyone working less hours? Do they all eventually burn out? Are they happy?

k_sze 7y ago

I’m now a tech lead and I don’t code much even at work, but I still don’t have a life - no friend, no real hobby. Haha

mikekchar 7y ago
Just random advice: feel free to pick a hobby randomly. My friend did that and I thought it very strange, but he committed himself to it and eventually really enjoyed it. Not only that, but he met a lot of people and eventually met his wife that way. It sounds weird, but if you aren't particularly passionate about something, it's a bit easier to pick a hobby because you can choose anything. Based on my friend's example, I decided to pick cooking as a hobby -- because who doesn't want good food. It's still the thing I do whenever I'm stressed out and just want to relax. It's a very strange thing.
- k_sze 7y ago
  You misunderstand. I have no life because I’m married and have two kids.

mattlutze 7y ago

Developers need to code after-hours in order to stay competitive in part because our industry enables businesses to not to provide continual learning time during an employee's workday. If you had, say, 20% of your work week to practice on skills, technologies, patterns or ideas that weren't a direct deliverable: would the average you still feel compelled to spend so much of your free time additionally practicing skills (ultimately to the benefit of your employer)? We bemoan the scourge of scope creep and the waste of mass meetings. Businesses demanding only short-term saleable output from developers is another drag on sustainable productivity.

anoplus 7y ago
> Developers need to code after-hours in order to stay competitive Which I think is an interesting social problem, where people feel uncomfortable not working after-hours because others do. I am a developer. I began a secret personal experiment where I do the opposite. I take 20% of my working hours for personal development without anyone knowing. I want to see if I actually become better professional. It takes great discipline for me in the face of pressure. I keep work related tasks out of my free time to minimum. I am not always succeed in taking entire 20% time to be honest. I also try to take short breaks to avoid burn-out.
Nursie 7y ago
> Developers need to code after-hours in order to stay competitive I don't think this is true. The technology does not actually move that fast and you can keep up to date in work time by making sure you get on to projects and teams that stretch and educate you.
collyw 7y ago
That's just rubbish. Sure the fashion show continues, with its constant churn and in order to keep up with that churn you probably need to keep on learning in your spare time. But most problems could be solved far more simply if people put a bit of forethought in rather than chasing fads. Does every website benefit from being a SPA. Do you really need all the kubernetes and docker containers? Realistically how much are you going to scale? Here is an example: https://adamdrake.com/command-line-tools-can-be-235x-faster-than-your-hadoop-cluster.html https://adamdrake.com/command-line-tools-can-be-235x-faster-...

peterburkimsher 7y ago

I write programs for fun. I build hardware for fun. I also travel, go to church, listen to music, go to concerts, cook, volunteer for NGOs, participate in CouchSurfing, ride a bicycle, take photos, play games, study, parapente, ski, hike, and swim for fun, and somehow even have the time to sit back and watch a beautiful sunset when there is one. I don't watch TV, drink, rarely watch movies or YouTube, though sometimes play AoE. Ideas come all the time, usually from those other areas of life. When I have a new idea, it makes a mess all over my browser tabs and desktop while I read all about how to implement it (data sources, existing projects). The idea consumes my thoughts. I talk about it to people who I meet. When I should be praying, I'm thinking about the algorithm. The obsession is probably rather weird to non-technical people, like my long-distance girlfriend. If I'm in the office but haven't got any pressing deadlines for company work, I'll do some coding on my side project. It's not usually something that can make money, though it is usually educational. I want to be able to publish it on my Github, although I often procrastinate writing the documentation. Some companies (e.g. Google) say that they support innovation, but they want to own all my intellectual property, and that means that I'm not allowed to pursue ideas while working there. I've avoided such companies for specifically that reason. When I finally do write it up, my software Show HN will sometimes get onto the Hacker News front page, or hardware on Hackaday. Very rarely, someone might see that and offer me a job. I suppose that's the reason I've written less documentation these days; I'm waiting until I hear a visa result and then I'll know about which country I should be working in. My ideas don't make money. I'm probably the only user. Yet in practice, side projects have helped me build up a code base that I can use for all programming tasks, including at work. In case you're wondering what kind of ideas these are, here's a small sample from the last year: EspUSB WiFi keyboard manufacturing, 12V and mains to USB adaptor inside a car form factor, WiFi to VGA on an ESP8266 for PPT slides, Fondant (JavaScript bookmarklet to load pdfjs library to open a PDF file to run a self-contained web app stored as PDF attachments), MySpace Dragon Hoard by country/language/genre for learning languages through music, a Chinese/English chatbot based on song lyrics to automatically write love letters. I don't judge people who only code as work; they're better at making money than me, and are definitely more likely to be promoted to management and have a good career. All these other things inspire me in a way that LeetCode just doesn't. Therefore other people get interviews much more easily, and know how to sell themselves. I'm bad at front-end design, so as a portfolio most of these look like rubbish. When I have a job (like now!), I don't need to worry about food and shelter, and the rest of things in life mean I'm quite happy, really. Being contented means I'm not interested in the "hustle", so I'll never make as much money and I know it, but that isn't important to me. I hope this resonates with some other passion-programmers, and I'd like to hear any opposing or similar perspectives.

kstenerud 7y ago

There are lots of things it's perfectly fine to do or not do; that's not the issue. When it comes to competition, you must take advantage of every edge you can get. And when you're seeking a position, you ARE in competition. As an individual, there are a number of edges that you can leverage to your benefit: raw talent, acquired skills, shipped products, your network, and politics. Which ones you build and practice is your own affair, but for your future's sake at least build SOME of them.

Nursie 7y ago

I find that middle answer a little objectionable - Some of the best developers I've ever worked with do very little coding outside of office hours. They all had a passion for it, and they tended to do some goal-oriented projects outside of work time now and again, but not be constantly hustling a side project or attempting to pick up a ton of new skills every single evening. The implication that you can't be the best unless you're dedicating another 20-30 hours a week on top of your day-job is just wrong. And the idea that throwing another 20-30 hours a week outside your day job at coding will make you better at it than someone that doesn't also isn't really borne out by experience. You can be passionate but have other hobbies and your own life away from the screen. The passion is the important thing. (OK, and the skill, you need an aptitude for this stuff)

finnjohnsen2 7y ago

Just stop it. It's OK not to have hobby coding projects, yes, but the opposite is also OK. When I play with e.g. Arduino, game programming or some random tech - this is in-fact my break from work. It's 100% driven by fun and play, so don't tell me I have no life please.

jonny383 7y ago

It is what it is, really. Some of my colleagues cringe at the thought of touching a computer either after hours or on the weekend. Others literally spend their entire 16 awake-hours on computers (not necessarily just programming, but a large majority are doing technical side projects, etc). Is there a difference in their work output? Absolutely there is, in my experience here. Contrary to my prior assumptions, it is actually the _die hard_ tech guys that - Produce excellent work - Produce a consistent amount of work over long periods - Keep up to date with tech - Don't really seem to suffer "burnout" - Consistently improve their skills and progress their careers - Have a high probability of being enthusiastic about a new project, technology or their work Where as the ones who are "work-only" programmers (not always) tend to - Produce excellent work in short bursts, and then average work the rest of the time - Do not produce consistent amounts of work over long periods - Not only struggle to keep up with tech, but actively _fight_ the idea of having to learn something new - Have a high probability of going to management to discuss their "burnout" and take extra time off - Seem to have one specialized skill set that neither improves nor gets worse - they just float around the same level - Rarely show enthusiasm for a new project, technology of their work People often refer to "burnout" in the context as a short term solution - but I honestly think that "burnout" as we know it is a result of someone who has already "checked out" or "lost the passion" for what they do (or perhaps, they never had it, and just went into this career for other reasons) This seems really grim for the non _die hard_ people, so here's some positive traits I've seen in them that are usually lacking in the _die hard_ people. - Typically have much better communication skills - Usually better at reasoning for which technology to use in a project (ignore "language or framework of the week") - Are better with customers and maintaining relations - Provide more support to their colleagues - Willingness to take on different kinds of tasks (no attitude of "that's not my job") I think it's fair to say that balance is key between these very dynamic cultural traits we observe as programmers. EDIT: formatting

fsloth 7y ago
It's okay not to be passionate about new technologies. From CS point of view it's all turtles down and you can implement the same algorithms and datastructures on pretty much on any language. Being to enthused about new technology is my jaded eyes perhaps a negative trait. New is not always better. Better is better, and if it's better, then it's better - not just because it's new. From business point of view caring actually about the domain after you know how to program is much more important than caring deeply about the implementation language or platform. Programs in the office are developed to help end users in their work. That's what matters - solving the end users problem and making their life more productive. Not doing it on the latest and greates language version.

ArcMex 7y ago

But I like coding at home after coding at work :)

glangdale 7y ago

The tragedy of this is, as other commenters have noted, that many workplaces don't offer much opportunity for developers to improve their skills in a general sense ("you'll learn exactly what you need for success at FoobarCorp by working on FoobarCorp projects!"). Couple this with our field's aggressive skepticism that anyone really knows how to program, regardless of prior achievements ("reverse a linked list, you big fat liar who lies") you've got a powerful motivation to ensure that you can work outside of your long-term work projects. Because, let's be frank, a lot of us, after spending a lot of time hacking on some particular system, really get serious atrophy in our abilities to work with a clean sheet. There was a point where I would have been able to confidently bang out some bizarre NFA graph or SIMD algorithm in Hyperscan from memory but would have been hard-pressed to remember how to open a file in C++ and read from it... A compromise would be to constantly look for opportunities to extend what you do (in terms of range, public visibility, etc) at work. If you can't, you run the serious risk that any evidence that some significant work was yours will be hidden away (unless you're working on open source) from the perspective of any future employer. This may be a point of negotiation with your current or future employer - you may have to put your hand up and say "I want to do something public facing" (i.e. "I want to spend X% of my time as a developer evangelist" or "I want to do our blog on Y" or "I think we should open-source part Z and I'll lead it"). Obviously these things are not magically easy, especially the more junior you are. I drove the process of open-sourcing Hyperscan (not for the reasons in this post but for other strategic reasons) and that was a pretty hefty process and a big ask, even for a senior person.

stared 7y ago

Speaking as a person with (way too) many side projects, I think that it may be wise to code only at work. Quite a few very productive people, who work during work, and then later - do something different (so not "coding another app", or even other ways of spending time with a computer). It seems to be healthier long term - I met much fewer burnouts among them. It is not binary - such people do once in a while time to learn something new. But it is very different from having a "second job". ... At the same time, I don't know many companies that do like side projects (well, some offer non-negotiable contracts de facto forbidding them, vide Google). If a company looks for a person with inner passion, usually it is a hope to channel it into company's work, to get (instead of a 9-5 worker) a 9-9 worker. The best companies I worked for do not interfere with someone's side projects.

seanwilson 7y ago

People say to avoid Facebook + Instagram because seeing lots of posts that exaggerate or distort the positives and play down the negatives of life is bad for your mental health. I think this should be applied to tech community posts as well - you don't need to be working at a big tech company, be a millionaire, have your own successful solo project etc. to be happy with life. Constantly comparing yourself to other people is a fast path to unhappiness.

dr-detroit 7y ago

When will people learn its not about what you do its how you brag. Nobody is going to come to your house and check your hobby stuff just have something on github and/or something to take to an interview. Braggarts succeed. All others perish.

thiht 7y ago

Does the title try to imply that having a life and coding at home are incompatible? Maybe just try to stop shaming people who enjoy coding at home, for a while? I have no idea why this rhetoric is considered ok.

DERRICKBRIAN 7y ago

IF YOU WANTS TO JOIN ILLUMINATE BROTHER HOOD MAKE SURE YOU'RE LOYAL AND SERIOUS MINDED INDIVIDUAL. I wanna give a concise testimony of how I became rich and famous Read and pay keen interest..... We all underestimate the opportunity that comes across us in life, waking up to see a testimony like this is a blessing no man can pay for. Ten years ago, I feed from hand to mouth but today am a bonafide member of ILLUMINATE BROTHER HOOD, it's a dream come true. Back before I got initiated, I have always been curious to join the hood until I came across a testimony online about the illuminate and I decided to make a bold step by following its instructions, lol and behold am a proud member of the hood and ready to help whosoever that's willing to join the hood. Before I left you with the link , let me quickly drop you a tips of your benefits as a new member of the hood. Regardless of your professions, the hood will stand firm and support you with it, all that is expected of you, is your loyalty. And after your initiation, you will be awarded immediately with your benefits such as you desired, that's is to say , the illuminate hood gives benefits according to your wish and desires. As a matter of fact, the hood always welcome, serious and loyal new members that wants to join. So therefore, make sure you're interested before you emails us at initiationhoodofilluminate@gmail.com but you can still call the office line on +1(202) 750-0111 for further information.