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Are you really equating the US (where I live) to China? I don't imagine anyone in this thread is dumb enough to see the comparison as "US good, China bad", but

Are you really equating the US (where I live) to China? I don't imagine anyone in this thread is dumb enough to see the comparison as "US good, China bad", but if you think they reside at about the same level on the oppression and tyranny scale... I don't know what to say to you. It has nothing to do with "culture" and everything to do with an oppressive regime's stranglehold on its citizens.

aalleavitch 7y ago
I've lived in the US all my life, and I've been subjected to propaganda my entire life as well. Everyone grows up in a society that tries to justify why it's the best and everything else is worse, point at a dozen good qualities of America and I will point at a dozen evil ones. America has and continues to do horrific things. I had to see that broken down with my own eyes to figure out that I was raised on lies just as much as any other oppressive nation.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Yet there are degrees of oppression, propaganda, and tyranny. It's not black and white and no country is perfect, but that doesn't mean we're on equal footing.
  - taurath 7y ago
    You assumed there was an equation there, but there wasn't from the comment. That one may be blind to one's own inadequacies doesn't mean their calling out other's is true, but IMO taking the high ground that there's a clear better should only be taken from an actually eyes open perspective, and even then that position would be shown with a heck of a lot more empathy. People tend to just take up the moral high ground and trumpet much much better they are and not be productive in improving anything.
  - aalleavitch 7y ago
    I think disregarding the beliefs of others as brainwashing is not giving why they feel the way they do a thorough enough examination; even if they genuinely do live in a manner oppressive to their own freedoms, it's often that they accept it because they think it's necessary to avoid the things that they abhor in the way WE live. And in my own opinion, many things about the way we live legitimately are worth abhorring.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      >And in my own opinion, many things about the way we live legitimately are worth abhorring. Sure, but how can you argue that people are free to accept anything that is forced upon them? I'm not sure any large number of have true "freedom", but some certainly have more than others.
      - aalleavitch 7y ago
        I know I live a life that is driven by a need to fulfill debts that I was tricked into by a society that told me I had to go into debt to become successful. Now I have little choice in what I do but to make as much money as I can in order to make those debts go away and my desires and passions have little say in the matter. I'm grateful for what I have, but it sure doesn't feel like freedom. American freedom is proportional to your wealth, and competition for that wealth is ceaseless. I might be willing to give up a lot of my "freedoms" to be free of that.
netsharc 7y ago
I bet you an average Chinese would be offended if you said China and N. Korea are about equally bad, he'd also say "oppressive regime's stranglehold on its citizens". As other commenters are pointing out, the US is not as bad as China, but there are shitty things in the US too. The average Chinese probably thinks "I'm pretty free to live my life, the economy is ok, what's your problem?", which is not far from what the average American thinks, and both ignore the terrible terrible shit that they don't feel affect them, or they think has always been like that. E.g. corrupt law enforcement and elite, inadequate healthcare, foreign policy that invites wrath, the treatment of minorities...
- EpicEng 7y ago
  >I bet you an average Chinese would be offended if you said China and N. Korea are about equally bad, he'd also say "oppressive regime's stranglehold on its citizens". Who said China and N. Korea are equivalent? Certainly not me. I have no idea what the end of that sentence was meant to mean. The second paragraph is just more whataboutism and creating another false equivalence while pretending not to. Of course we (our government), like pretty much every country on Earth, have done shitty things and continue to do shitty things. The difference is that we, as private citizens, can speak out against it, protest, and vote their asses out of office. I wonder where the Uyghurs would prefer to live?
  - netsharc 7y ago
    You already acknowledge that there is some oppression and tyranny in the USA, yes I'm very aware that China is much much worse. The equivalence I'm trying to make is the idea that the average citizen in both countries probably think "my government is not that bad". You're screaming that the Chinese have it much worse, and I was trying to draw the picture that an average Chinese would probably scream "North Koreans have it so much worse!". The point is, you'd call that Chinese person brainwashed, since they are ignoring their government's oppression and tyranny. Guess what I'm trying to say? It's that at some level you also have been brainwashed. Yes China is a lot worse, but if you ask a Swede what they think about Americans thinking they have a good country, they'd probably laugh and say "Brainwashed fools!". Yes the Uyghurs would prefer to live in the USA. Guess where a black person would prefer to live, if you tell them about the difference of police interaction in USA vs in Scandinavia? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd8ZTKU8csw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd8ZTKU8csw > The difference is that we, as private citizens, can speak out against it, protest, and vote their asses out of office. How is that working out for you? The Koch brothers are seemingly able to override your choices...

aalleavitch 7y ago

I've lived in the US all my life, and I've been subjected to propaganda my entire life as well. Everyone grows up in a society that tries to justify why it's the best and everything else is worse, point at a dozen good qualities of America and I will point at a dozen evil ones. America has and continues to do horrific things. I had to see that broken down with my own eyes to figure out that I was raised on lies just as much as any other oppressive nation.

EpicEng 7y ago
Yet there are degrees of oppression, propaganda, and tyranny. It's not black and white and no country is perfect, but that doesn't mean we're on equal footing.
- taurath 7y ago
  You assumed there was an equation there, but there wasn't from the comment. That one may be blind to one's own inadequacies doesn't mean their calling out other's is true, but IMO taking the high ground that there's a clear better should only be taken from an actually eyes open perspective, and even then that position would be shown with a heck of a lot more empathy. People tend to just take up the moral high ground and trumpet much much better they are and not be productive in improving anything.
- aalleavitch 7y ago
  I think disregarding the beliefs of others as brainwashing is not giving why they feel the way they do a thorough enough examination; even if they genuinely do live in a manner oppressive to their own freedoms, it's often that they accept it because they think it's necessary to avoid the things that they abhor in the way WE live. And in my own opinion, many things about the way we live legitimately are worth abhorring.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    >And in my own opinion, many things about the way we live legitimately are worth abhorring. Sure, but how can you argue that people are free to accept anything that is forced upon them? I'm not sure any large number of have true "freedom", but some certainly have more than others.
    - aalleavitch 7y ago
      I know I live a life that is driven by a need to fulfill debts that I was tricked into by a society that told me I had to go into debt to become successful. Now I have little choice in what I do but to make as much money as I can in order to make those debts go away and my desires and passions have little say in the matter. I'm grateful for what I have, but it sure doesn't feel like freedom. American freedom is proportional to your wealth, and competition for that wealth is ceaseless. I might be willing to give up a lot of my "freedoms" to be free of that.

netsharc 7y ago

I bet you an average Chinese would be offended if you said China and N. Korea are about equally bad, he'd also say "oppressive regime's stranglehold on its citizens". As other commenters are pointing out, the US is not as bad as China, but there are shitty things in the US too. The average Chinese probably thinks "I'm pretty free to live my life, the economy is ok, what's your problem?", which is not far from what the average American thinks, and both ignore the terrible terrible shit that they don't feel affect them, or they think has always been like that. E.g. corrupt law enforcement and elite, inadequate healthcare, foreign policy that invites wrath, the treatment of minorities...

EpicEng 7y ago
>I bet you an average Chinese would be offended if you said China and N. Korea are about equally bad, he'd also say "oppressive regime's stranglehold on its citizens". Who said China and N. Korea are equivalent? Certainly not me. I have no idea what the end of that sentence was meant to mean. The second paragraph is just more whataboutism and creating another false equivalence while pretending not to. Of course we (our government), like pretty much every country on Earth, have done shitty things and continue to do shitty things. The difference is that we, as private citizens, can speak out against it, protest, and vote their asses out of office. I wonder where the Uyghurs would prefer to live?
- netsharc 7y ago
  You already acknowledge that there is some oppression and tyranny in the USA, yes I'm very aware that China is much much worse. The equivalence I'm trying to make is the idea that the average citizen in both countries probably think "my government is not that bad". You're screaming that the Chinese have it much worse, and I was trying to draw the picture that an average Chinese would probably scream "North Koreans have it so much worse!". The point is, you'd call that Chinese person brainwashed, since they are ignoring their government's oppression and tyranny. Guess what I'm trying to say? It's that at some level you also have been brainwashed. Yes China is a lot worse, but if you ask a Swede what they think about Americans thinking they have a good country, they'd probably laugh and say "Brainwashed fools!". Yes the Uyghurs would prefer to live in the USA. Guess where a black person would prefer to live, if you tell them about the difference of police interaction in USA vs in Scandinavia? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd8ZTKU8csw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd8ZTKU8csw > The difference is that we, as private citizens, can speak out against it, protest, and vote their asses out of office. How is that working out for you? The Koch brothers are seemingly able to override your choices...