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We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. Unions can certainly do harm, and you are right that they shouldn't be seen as a pure and i

We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. Unions can certainly do harm, and you are right that they shouldn't be seen as a pure and irreproachable force for good, but small anecdotes about individual bad decisions made by unions are not useful in discussions about this. In fact, they play to the already ridiculously anti-union sentiment that the vast majority of Americans (this article is about America, apologies if you are foreign) hold. Unions can go way too far, and they can do harm, but the overwhelming majority of Americans live so far away from that point that it's not even a fruitful discussion to be having.

username90 7y ago
> We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. No we don't, that is called slavery.
- tomtheelder 7y ago
  Okay yes that's true. Within the bounds of modern capitalism we are at an extreme place.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- chobeat 7y ago
  The definition of slavery changed over time. Be sure that salaried worker in a few centuries will be considered a mild form of slavery similar to indentured servitude, debt bondage or coloni's restriction of freedom under the Roman Empire. "Were they forced to work? Yes and no. What happened if they decided not to work? Weeeeell... if they were rich, nothing. If they were poor, they would have died."
  - RHSeeger 7y ago
    > Were they forced to work? Yes and no. What happened if they decided not to work? Weeeeell... if they were rich, nothing. If they were poor, they would have died Hasn't that always been true of society, across all government models (or lack thereof)? At best, you don't have the rich that don't need to work... but what are the situations where the vast majority don't need to work (as far back as hunting/gathering).
- unapologetic 7y ago
  We still have actual slavery and wage slavery isn't much better.
  - unapologetic 7y ago
    Which part of this is wrongthink to the HN overlords?
    - dang 7y ago
      Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? We're trying for a bit higher quality level than internet median. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking that spirit more to heart, we'd really appreciate it.
      - unapologetic 7y ago
        Please explain the problem with my comment on slavery. The first part is factually accurate, the second is a valid opinion to express. I was downvoted, why? You know what whatever. I know better than to ask HN moderation for any sort of transparency or any dedication to actually fostering discussion vs just reinforcing the particularly awful groupthink that dominates this place.
        unapologetic 7y ago
        oh look, downvoted again. The downvoting system on this site is a really broken by design sort of feature. It's entirely just a manner to ensure the groupthink stays on track.
        dang 7y ago
        Factual accuracy isn't enough to make a comment substantive, and the point about "wage slavery not being much better" is an empty cliché. We're looking for thoughtful discussion here, not throwaway lines. I've posted thousands of comments explaining HN moderation—probably tens of thousands, in fact—so I'll have to differ with you on it lacking "any sort of transparency". What would you like to know?
friendlybus 7y ago
This is a weird claim to make in the games industry. The vast amounts of cash Fortnite made for Epic is being poured back into buying up indie games and supplying a better store for game sales and creating a better game engine that anyone can pick up and use for 5% of sales. It is empowering the little guy way more than could be imagined in the past. Is that 100% of their revenue? No, but it is well above what anyone could hope for 10 years ago. You used to require hundreds of thousands of dollars in licenses to even see the tools used. People are getting good jobs training off these tools as we speak and releasing new innovative products. I understand working conditions in the US sucks and I hold no bones about fixing them. The union is an infinite tool that will not stop at fixing engineering conditions. It has the ability to own the industry. That is not an outcome I want to see, I'd prefer to give 50% of my salary to whoever wants it than have a union tell me how to run what I do.
- 0x5f3759df-i 7y ago
  >The vast amounts of cash Fortnite made for Epic is being poured back into buying up indie games and supplying a better store for game sales and creating a better game engine that anyone can pick up and use for 5% of sales. For the sole reason of trying to replace Steam as the dominant store platform on PC. Epic isn't just doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. This will not continue once Epic achieves their goal of buying their way into being the middleman between developers and gamers.
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    They don't need to replace Steam, they have 80 million active users from Fortnite alone. Steam has 90 million active users. Were they to compete with Steam properly they would crush Steam's store feature set. The Epic store is still under-developed compared to Steam by a lot. Regardless of their perceived intent the entire point is that the little guy is being rewarded and the system works even if it appears 'evil'.
    - Apocryphon 7y ago
      So this is an argument for trickle-down economics within an industry, except used to rationalize fighting unionization, instead of increased taxation.
forrestthewoods 7y ago
> We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. The #1 problem in most cities is too many people are making too much money and it’s driving housing prices through the roof. The demand for skilled labor is astronomical. I would not call that absolute extreme power of capital over labor.
- subtlpropaganda 7y ago
  Urban housing scarcity is mainly caused by speculation and corrupt zoning laws.

username90 7y ago

> We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. No we don't, that is called slavery.

tomtheelder 7y ago
Okay yes that's true. Within the bounds of modern capitalism we are at an extreme place.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
chobeat 7y ago
The definition of slavery changed over time. Be sure that salaried worker in a few centuries will be considered a mild form of slavery similar to indentured servitude, debt bondage or coloni's restriction of freedom under the Roman Empire. "Were they forced to work? Yes and no. What happened if they decided not to work? Weeeeell... if they were rich, nothing. If they were poor, they would have died."
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  > Were they forced to work? Yes and no. What happened if they decided not to work? Weeeeell... if they were rich, nothing. If they were poor, they would have died Hasn't that always been true of society, across all government models (or lack thereof)? At best, you don't have the rich that don't need to work... but what are the situations where the vast majority don't need to work (as far back as hunting/gathering).
unapologetic 7y ago
We still have actual slavery and wage slavery isn't much better.
- unapologetic 7y ago
  Which part of this is wrongthink to the HN overlords?
  - dang 7y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? We're trying for a bit higher quality level than internet median. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking that spirit more to heart, we'd really appreciate it.
    - unapologetic 7y ago
      Please explain the problem with my comment on slavery. The first part is factually accurate, the second is a valid opinion to express. I was downvoted, why? You know what whatever. I know better than to ask HN moderation for any sort of transparency or any dedication to actually fostering discussion vs just reinforcing the particularly awful groupthink that dominates this place.
      - unapologetic 7y ago
        oh look, downvoted again. The downvoting system on this site is a really broken by design sort of feature. It's entirely just a manner to ensure the groupthink stays on track.
      - dang 7y ago
        Factual accuracy isn't enough to make a comment substantive, and the point about "wage slavery not being much better" is an empty cliché. We're looking for thoughtful discussion here, not throwaway lines. I've posted thousands of comments explaining HN moderation—probably tens of thousands, in fact—so I'll have to differ with you on it lacking "any sort of transparency". What would you like to know?

friendlybus 7y ago

This is a weird claim to make in the games industry. The vast amounts of cash Fortnite made for Epic is being poured back into buying up indie games and supplying a better store for game sales and creating a better game engine that anyone can pick up and use for 5% of sales. It is empowering the little guy way more than could be imagined in the past. Is that 100% of their revenue? No, but it is well above what anyone could hope for 10 years ago. You used to require hundreds of thousands of dollars in licenses to even see the tools used. People are getting good jobs training off these tools as we speak and releasing new innovative products. I understand working conditions in the US sucks and I hold no bones about fixing them. The union is an infinite tool that will not stop at fixing engineering conditions. It has the ability to own the industry. That is not an outcome I want to see, I'd prefer to give 50% of my salary to whoever wants it than have a union tell me how to run what I do.

0x5f3759df-i 7y ago
>The vast amounts of cash Fortnite made for Epic is being poured back into buying up indie games and supplying a better store for game sales and creating a better game engine that anyone can pick up and use for 5% of sales. For the sole reason of trying to replace Steam as the dominant store platform on PC. Epic isn't just doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. This will not continue once Epic achieves their goal of buying their way into being the middleman between developers and gamers.
- friendlybus 7y ago
  They don't need to replace Steam, they have 80 million active users from Fortnite alone. Steam has 90 million active users. Were they to compete with Steam properly they would crush Steam's store feature set. The Epic store is still under-developed compared to Steam by a lot. Regardless of their perceived intent the entire point is that the little guy is being rewarded and the system works even if it appears 'evil'.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    So this is an argument for trickle-down economics within an industry, except used to rationalize fighting unionization, instead of increased taxation.

forrestthewoods 7y ago

> We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. The #1 problem in most cities is too many people are making too much money and it’s driving housing prices through the roof. The demand for skilled labor is astronomical. I would not call that absolute extreme power of capital over labor.

subtlpropaganda 7y ago
Urban housing scarcity is mainly caused by speculation and corrupt zoning laws.