4 ms·

This is the standard blanket denial of an enormous number of mens' lived experiences. The vast majority of heterosexual women lose respect for a man who shows

This is the standard blanket denial of an enormous number of mens' lived experiences. The vast majority of heterosexual women lose respect for a man who shows weakness, and it's certainly not "women doing what men do", as the man displaying a stiff upper lip for his partner is substantially more likely to weep with his male buddies. At risk of sounding like an MRA, we live in a society which accepts, prima facie, the lived experience of women as incontrovertible evidence of how the average man reacts to the average woman, for good or for ill. But the lived experience of men must be handwaved away as some sort of Occam's Razor-defying Rube Goldberg contraption of transitive culture. Why is it so difficult to believe that this is something that actually happens?

krapp 7y ago
>The vast majority of heterosexual women lose respect for a man who shows weakness, and it's certainly not "women doing what men do", as the man displaying a stiff upper lip for his partner is substantially more likely to weep with his male buddies. I'm not certain women are as emotionally simplistic as this. Plenty are attracted to emotional vulnerability. A man who hides his emotions too much seems more likely to commit violence, after all. Then again, some women like that. Women, like men, are complex beings but unfortunately threads about masculinity and feminism here tend towards reductionism. And what I mean by "doing what men do" is reinforcing the stereotype that a man can't be masculine and also display emotion (or "show weakness") as you put it. This isn't a behavioral trait created by women and forced upon men against their will. Plenty of men who spent their childhood getting beaten by their fathers or their classmates for being too "sissy" will attest that this is an aspect of male culture created by and largely reinforced by men. No, most men wouldn't weep to their male buddies, they wouldn't dare. >Why is it so difficult to believe that this is something that actually happens? Why is it so difficult not to blame women for everything? Men aren't puppets, they have agency, they are responsible (really, far more responsible) for the nature of modern masculine culture and identity, good and ill.
- scarmig 7y ago
  It's always interesting that, when men express their lived experiences, people will say that they're stupid and crazy. Society as a whole polices men's emotional expression. But some feminists are extraordinarily unwilling to recognize that women are at the very least coequal perpetrators of this. Hell, some (and apparently you) are unwilling to concede that women play any role at all in this. In my lived experience, my mother and female family members were much more critical of me expressing emotion than my father and male family members. Moreover, female partners police my emotional expression a lot more than male friends (or partners) do. But, go for it, keep on denying women have any agency at all in gender politics and saying it's all men's fault.
  - krapp 7y ago
    >But some self-proclaimed feminists are extraordinarily unwilling to recognize that women are at the very least coequal perpetrators of this. >Hell, they (and apparently you) are unwilling to concede that women play any role at all in this. The point of my original comment was literally that women bear some responsibility for reinforcing the harmful stereotypes of male culture. I merely suggested that women weren't entirely to blame, rather that both men and women were complicit in perpetuating toxic masculinity. That attempted nuance has apparently gotten lost because I made the mistake of trying to engage with one of HN's trigger phrases and now this thread is locked into a fetal position of incel rage and defensiveness. Serves me right, I guess.
    - scarmig 7y ago
      > The point of my original comment was literally that women bear some responsibility for reinforcing the harmful stereotypes of male culture Unfortunately, that doesn't really jive with this: > Men aren't puppets, they have agency, they are responsible (really, far more responsible) Women have agency. Many women do bad things, including enforcing toxic gender norms. It probably makes as much sense to call that "toxic femininity" instead of "toxic masculinity" when women do it, but you do you. Neither phrase is useful, because they focus on putting blame on one gender or another when toxic gender norms are really a collaborative effort.

krapp 7y ago

>The vast majority of heterosexual women lose respect for a man who shows weakness, and it's certainly not "women doing what men do", as the man displaying a stiff upper lip for his partner is substantially more likely to weep with his male buddies. I'm not certain women are as emotionally simplistic as this. Plenty are attracted to emotional vulnerability. A man who hides his emotions too much seems more likely to commit violence, after all. Then again, some women like that. Women, like men, are complex beings but unfortunately threads about masculinity and feminism here tend towards reductionism. And what I mean by "doing what men do" is reinforcing the stereotype that a man can't be masculine and also display emotion (or "show weakness") as you put it. This isn't a behavioral trait created by women and forced upon men against their will. Plenty of men who spent their childhood getting beaten by their fathers or their classmates for being too "sissy" will attest that this is an aspect of male culture created by and largely reinforced by men. No, most men wouldn't weep to their male buddies, they wouldn't dare. >Why is it so difficult to believe that this is something that actually happens? Why is it so difficult not to blame women for everything? Men aren't puppets, they have agency, they are responsible (really, far more responsible) for the nature of modern masculine culture and identity, good and ill.

scarmig 7y ago
It's always interesting that, when men express their lived experiences, people will say that they're stupid and crazy. Society as a whole polices men's emotional expression. But some feminists are extraordinarily unwilling to recognize that women are at the very least coequal perpetrators of this. Hell, some (and apparently you) are unwilling to concede that women play any role at all in this. In my lived experience, my mother and female family members were much more critical of me expressing emotion than my father and male family members. Moreover, female partners police my emotional expression a lot more than male friends (or partners) do. But, go for it, keep on denying women have any agency at all in gender politics and saying it's all men's fault.
- krapp 7y ago
  >But some self-proclaimed feminists are extraordinarily unwilling to recognize that women are at the very least coequal perpetrators of this. >Hell, they (and apparently you) are unwilling to concede that women play any role at all in this. The point of my original comment was literally that women bear some responsibility for reinforcing the harmful stereotypes of male culture. I merely suggested that women weren't entirely to blame, rather that both men and women were complicit in perpetuating toxic masculinity. That attempted nuance has apparently gotten lost because I made the mistake of trying to engage with one of HN's trigger phrases and now this thread is locked into a fetal position of incel rage and defensiveness. Serves me right, I guess.
  - scarmig 7y ago
    > The point of my original comment was literally that women bear some responsibility for reinforcing the harmful stereotypes of male culture Unfortunately, that doesn't really jive with this: > Men aren't puppets, they have agency, they are responsible (really, far more responsible) Women have agency. Many women do bad things, including enforcing toxic gender norms. It probably makes as much sense to call that "toxic femininity" instead of "toxic masculinity" when women do it, but you do you. Neither phrase is useful, because they focus on putting blame on one gender or another when toxic gender norms are really a collaborative effort.