4 ms·

But again. This doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to employment we'd still be

by jahaja 7y ago

But again. This doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to employment we'd still be queuing to the transatlantic ocean liners.

Kalium 7y ago
We could always compare unemployment rates in the US to those in France for a straight forward comparison to a European country. Then we could compare full-time employment rates for another straight forward comparison to a European country. The American experience is that labor can and occasionally has set itself up for massive failure in the past. The idea that there's literally nothing to lose fails a basic sanity check against not-so-distant American history. It may be worth considering the possibility that some people might might legitimately, earnestly, and honestly perceive there to be real risks. A pitch to such people of "You have nothing to lose!" runs the risk of coming across as, optimistically, ignorant. Perhaps such things could be worth considering for a person as informed and thoughtful as yourself?
- jahaja 7y ago
  > We could always compare unemployment rates in the US to those in France for a straight forward comparison to a European country. Then we could compare full-time employment rates for another straight forward comparison to a European country. Sure, go a head. Historically as well. Furthermore, what kinds of jobs are those actually? What is the quality of the jobs? Do they enable a dignified existence and so on? > The American experience is that labor can and occasionally has set itself up for massive failure in the past. The idea that there's literally nothing to lose fails a basic sanity check against not-so-distant American history. Do you have an example where it was obviously due to unions?
  - Kalium 7y ago
    I wrote a more detailed response, but I have deleted it, as it was a distraction. Getting into the details of Detroit's economic history or a deep comparison between the US and French economies struck me as perhaps not as helpful as it could be while providing an endless profusion of points for differences of opinion to distract. I hope you'll forgive this editorial decision. Please accept my sincere apologies if I have been in any way less than clear. All I ask if that you consider if it may be worth considering the possibility that some people might might legitimately, earnestly, and honestly perceive there to be real risks. People may have what seem to them to be good reasons to fear that they may actually have something to lose. Some of these reasons might be rooted in history in living memory. Please, don't hesitate to ask if there's something you would like me to clarify about this core point.
    - jahaja 7y ago
      No worries. I can of course understand that some might think so. I'm just cynical enough to assume that a corporation will move to a lower-cost country independent of the added 15% or whatever the amount in added labour costs that various benefits may add. If there's a profit increase waiting, they'll grab it.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - unapologetic 7y ago
      > I hope you'll forgive this editorial decision. Why would we, you threw out some sketchy claims and then bailed on explaining them.
- unapologetic 7y ago
  What do you think you will actually lose by forming a union?
AndrewGaspar 7y ago
If we're comparing to "Europe": - EU Youth Unemployment Rate: August 2019 https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemploymen... - US Youth Unemployment Rate: November 2018 - December 2019: https://www.statista.com/statistics/217448/seasonally-adjusted-monthly-youth-unemployment-rate-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/217448/seasonally-adjust...
- unapologetic 7y ago
  Is that the same unemployment rate where the truth depends on how hard you look and who you support?
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    If there's something wrong with the statistics given in the source, point it out. If you've got statistics that you think are more accurate, give sources, and say why you think they're more accurate. But this drive-by snide comment is pretty worthless. You can be better than that.
    - unapologetic 7y ago
      It's an equally high effort response to posting unemployment rates in the first place.
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        Given the flow of the argument in this subthread, it seemed at least somewhat relevant. You seem to be trying to dismiss the point, not by argument, not by evidence, but merely by being dismissive. That's not a very convincing approach.
        unapologetic 7y ago
        because brining up youth unemployment and nothing else is an honest argument about the merits of unions? It's low effort. It's not useful. It provides no evidence for the argument being put forth. Really it's not even making any sort of argument. It's just a fact presented in the hopes that people will buy a tenuous at best relationship without further insight.
chimeracoder 7y ago
> But again. This doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to employment we'd still be queuing to the transatlantic ocean liners. You can't use a "straightforward comparison" to Europe because labor law is so different in the US. European unions are legally required to compete with each other for workers, whereas American unions almost exclusively represent members where they assert exclusive right to representation. That's a massive difference in incentives, and it makes for very different dynamics.

by jahaja 7y ago

Kalium 7y ago

We could always compare unemployment rates in the US to those in France for a straight forward comparison to a European country. Then we could compare full-time employment rates for another straight forward comparison to a European country. The American experience is that labor can and occasionally has set itself up for massive failure in the past. The idea that there's literally nothing to lose fails a basic sanity check against not-so-distant American history. It may be worth considering the possibility that some people might might legitimately, earnestly, and honestly perceive there to be real risks. A pitch to such people of "You have nothing to lose!" runs the risk of coming across as, optimistically, ignorant. Perhaps such things could be worth considering for a person as informed and thoughtful as yourself?

jahaja 7y ago
> We could always compare unemployment rates in the US to those in France for a straight forward comparison to a European country. Then we could compare full-time employment rates for another straight forward comparison to a European country. Sure, go a head. Historically as well. Furthermore, what kinds of jobs are those actually? What is the quality of the jobs? Do they enable a dignified existence and so on? > The American experience is that labor can and occasionally has set itself up for massive failure in the past. The idea that there's literally nothing to lose fails a basic sanity check against not-so-distant American history. Do you have an example where it was obviously due to unions?
- Kalium 7y ago
  I wrote a more detailed response, but I have deleted it, as it was a distraction. Getting into the details of Detroit's economic history or a deep comparison between the US and French economies struck me as perhaps not as helpful as it could be while providing an endless profusion of points for differences of opinion to distract. I hope you'll forgive this editorial decision. Please accept my sincere apologies if I have been in any way less than clear. All I ask if that you consider if it may be worth considering the possibility that some people might might legitimately, earnestly, and honestly perceive there to be real risks. People may have what seem to them to be good reasons to fear that they may actually have something to lose. Some of these reasons might be rooted in history in living memory. Please, don't hesitate to ask if there's something you would like me to clarify about this core point.
  - jahaja 7y ago
    No worries. I can of course understand that some might think so. I'm just cynical enough to assume that a corporation will move to a lower-cost country independent of the added 15% or whatever the amount in added labour costs that various benefits may add. If there's a profit increase waiting, they'll grab it.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - unapologetic 7y ago
    > I hope you'll forgive this editorial decision. Why would we, you threw out some sketchy claims and then bailed on explaining them.
unapologetic 7y ago
What do you think you will actually lose by forming a union?

AndrewGaspar 7y ago

If we're comparing to "Europe": - EU Youth Unemployment Rate: August 2019 https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemploymen... - US Youth Unemployment Rate: November 2018 - December 2019: https://www.statista.com/statistics/217448/seasonally-adjusted-monthly-youth-unemployment-rate-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/217448/seasonally-adjust...

unapologetic 7y ago
Is that the same unemployment rate where the truth depends on how hard you look and who you support?
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  If there's something wrong with the statistics given in the source, point it out. If you've got statistics that you think are more accurate, give sources, and say why you think they're more accurate. But this drive-by snide comment is pretty worthless. You can be better than that.
  - unapologetic 7y ago
    It's an equally high effort response to posting unemployment rates in the first place.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      Given the flow of the argument in this subthread, it seemed at least somewhat relevant. You seem to be trying to dismiss the point, not by argument, not by evidence, but merely by being dismissive. That's not a very convincing approach.
      - unapologetic 7y ago
        because brining up youth unemployment and nothing else is an honest argument about the merits of unions? It's low effort. It's not useful. It provides no evidence for the argument being put forth. Really it's not even making any sort of argument. It's just a fact presented in the hopes that people will buy a tenuous at best relationship without further insight.

chimeracoder 7y ago

> But again. This doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to employment we'd still be queuing to the transatlantic ocean liners. You can't use a "straightforward comparison" to Europe because labor law is so different in the US. European unions are legally required to compete with each other for workers, whereas American unions almost exclusively represent members where they assert exclusive right to representation. That's a massive difference in incentives, and it makes for very different dynamics.