12 ms·

If the choice of language is because it's beginner-friendly, and the use-case is industrial hardware, then the choice is only being made so the company doesn't

by mdszy 7y ago

If the choice of language is because it's beginner-friendly, and the use-case is industrial hardware, then the choice is only being made so the company doesn't have to pay professional-level salaries.

dragontamer 7y ago
Can the same hardware not be used for both industrial, and beginner-friendly settings? Some of the biggest successes are because beginner-friendly kits were delivered to universities. Linux and Unix are a great example of this: students taught in Linux / Unix environments (even using "toy" languages like Python) end up growing into professionals who... still use Linux. One of the most important business moves for a "platform" is to figure out how to get beginner-level students comfortable with your platform. Linux somewhat did this accidentally, but today we need to purposefully create that environment. -------- Besides, even on the same project... not everyone needs to be an expert embedded engineer. By allowing Javascript onto the platform, you can hire a Web GUI-developer who probably knows a lot more about UI-design than you. The Web GUI master can work their Javascript into your application, and run code side-by-side with your tightly optimized C code. No, it won't be efficient. But that's what a 480MHz processor is for, to help you run less efficient code at speeds that are acceptable. This isn't even hypothetical: with WiFi 802.11 n support, this Arduino could very well be running Web-applications served from some centralized location (distributed wirelessly over standard LAMP / HTTP stacks). It will be up to the C System programmers to ensure that a locked-up GUI thread won't wreak the system (or break realtime promises)... but there would be major benefits to distributing applications over standard internet mechanisms.
- mdszy 7y ago
  >Can the same hardware not be used for both industrial, and beginner-friendly settings? Sorry but, if you have to ask this question, it's pretty clear that you have no idea what many industrial settings require. There are ruggedness requirements, stability requirements, longevity requirements... I work in an industry where our products are used for LITERAL decades. There's no way that anything even remotely marketed as "beginner friendly" could begin to work for anything we do. You can't just throw more hardware at a problem and use that as an excuse for shitty software, come on. This incredibly flawed logic is why the minimum requirements for a chat program include 32GB of RAM.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    > I work in an industry where our products are used for LITERAL decades. There's no way that anything even remotely marketed as "beginner friendly" could begin to work for anything we do. Beginner friendly doesn't mean that the other requirements disappear. The Arduino can run Javascript. Sure, you don't have to make it use Javascript, but it can be done. Just because Arduino runs Javascript doesn't change its -40C to +85C operating temperature. Arduino can be BOTH beginner friendly, AND rugged enough to operate at sub-zero temperatures indefinitely. And if you really want to "remove Javascript" from your stack, then you're 100% welcome to do that. Universities on the other hand, have other requirements. Beginner friendly is absolutely a necessity for students. You have to hook students with something easy if you want the students to be interested in projects. Having a SINGLE platform scale from beginner usage, all the way up to professional usage, is extremely important for the general ecosystem. And I still argue that opening up Javascript developers onto the platform is a good thing. UI design is complicated, and someone who fully focuses on the user-experience, culture, and presentation is useful. (Even if a GUI designer is ignorant of embedded issues, they can remain helpful in other ways).
    - mdszy 7y ago
      >Beginner friendly doesn't mean that the other requirements disappear. Beginner friendly includes price. If you have the other requirements, it's going to cost much more. Doesn't matter if it's beginner friendly if a development board costs $5k.
      - dragontamer 7y ago
        The development board literally costs $100 and the STM32H747XI costs $17 from Digikey. Yes, that's with -40°C ~ 85°C operating temperature and a pretty wide operating voltage of 1.62V ~ 3.6V. The actual device here looks quite rugged, comes with a variety of useful specs. The Arduino Pro IS the beginner friendly development board, the beginner-friendly introduction to STM32. A "real" product would strip off all the unnecessary parts and only use the $17 STM32H7 chip alone.

by mdszy 7y ago

dragontamer 7y ago

Can the same hardware not be used for both industrial, and beginner-friendly settings? Some of the biggest successes are because beginner-friendly kits were delivered to universities. Linux and Unix are a great example of this: students taught in Linux / Unix environments (even using "toy" languages like Python) end up growing into professionals who... still use Linux. One of the most important business moves for a "platform" is to figure out how to get beginner-level students comfortable with your platform. Linux somewhat did this accidentally, but today we need to purposefully create that environment. -------- Besides, even on the same project... not everyone needs to be an expert embedded engineer. By allowing Javascript onto the platform, you can hire a Web GUI-developer who probably knows a lot more about UI-design than you. The Web GUI master can work their Javascript into your application, and run code side-by-side with your tightly optimized C code. No, it won't be efficient. But that's what a 480MHz processor is for, to help you run less efficient code at speeds that are acceptable. This isn't even hypothetical: with WiFi 802.11 n support, this Arduino could very well be running Web-applications served from some centralized location (distributed wirelessly over standard LAMP / HTTP stacks). It will be up to the C System programmers to ensure that a locked-up GUI thread won't wreak the system (or break realtime promises)... but there would be major benefits to distributing applications over standard internet mechanisms.

mdszy 7y ago
>Can the same hardware not be used for both industrial, and beginner-friendly settings? Sorry but, if you have to ask this question, it's pretty clear that you have no idea what many industrial settings require. There are ruggedness requirements, stability requirements, longevity requirements... I work in an industry where our products are used for LITERAL decades. There's no way that anything even remotely marketed as "beginner friendly" could begin to work for anything we do. You can't just throw more hardware at a problem and use that as an excuse for shitty software, come on. This incredibly flawed logic is why the minimum requirements for a chat program include 32GB of RAM.
- dragontamer 7y ago
  > I work in an industry where our products are used for LITERAL decades. There's no way that anything even remotely marketed as "beginner friendly" could begin to work for anything we do. Beginner friendly doesn't mean that the other requirements disappear. The Arduino can run Javascript. Sure, you don't have to make it use Javascript, but it can be done. Just because Arduino runs Javascript doesn't change its -40C to +85C operating temperature. Arduino can be BOTH beginner friendly, AND rugged enough to operate at sub-zero temperatures indefinitely. And if you really want to "remove Javascript" from your stack, then you're 100% welcome to do that. Universities on the other hand, have other requirements. Beginner friendly is absolutely a necessity for students. You have to hook students with something easy if you want the students to be interested in projects. Having a SINGLE platform scale from beginner usage, all the way up to professional usage, is extremely important for the general ecosystem. And I still argue that opening up Javascript developers onto the platform is a good thing. UI design is complicated, and someone who fully focuses on the user-experience, culture, and presentation is useful. (Even if a GUI designer is ignorant of embedded issues, they can remain helpful in other ways).
  - mdszy 7y ago
    >Beginner friendly doesn't mean that the other requirements disappear. Beginner friendly includes price. If you have the other requirements, it's going to cost much more. Doesn't matter if it's beginner friendly if a development board costs $5k.
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      The development board literally costs $100 and the STM32H747XI costs $17 from Digikey. Yes, that's with -40°C ~ 85°C operating temperature and a pretty wide operating voltage of 1.62V ~ 3.6V. The actual device here looks quite rugged, comes with a variety of useful specs. The Arduino Pro IS the beginner friendly development board, the beginner-friendly introduction to STM32. A "real" product would strip off all the unnecessary parts and only use the $17 STM32H7 chip alone.