4 ms·

In my experience, women react very negatively to my tears. (And as for "toxic masculinity", wouldn't this be better described as "toxic femininity"?)

krapp 7y ago
>(And as for "toxic masculinity", wouldn't this be better described as "toxic femininity"?) No. It's modern masculine culture that doesn't allow men to express their emotions for fear of appearing weak or "beta." The toxicity derives from that pathological aspect of masculine culture. Women doing what men do and reinforcing this toxic aspect of masculine culture are also engaging in toxic masculinity.
- signalremotefac 7y ago
  The point the person is trying to make is describing masculine behaviours as toxic, by simply prefixing toxic, is an example of what they are describing. Thus, it is really a toxic attidude towards masculinity and those that are male. You are even trying to describe women that "adopt" these behaviours as being bad for being more male. Thus, guilty and worthless. As if they are not A True Woman.
  - krapp 7y ago
    >The point the person is trying to make is describing masculine behaviours as toxic, by simply prefixing toxic, is an example of what you are describing. No, that's not what toxic masculinity describes. But I've been down this rabbithole before on HN, and I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you otherwise. >You are even trying to describe women that "adopt" these behaviours as being bad for being more male. Thus, guilty and worthless. As if they are not A True Woman. That's not even a remotely charitable or accurate interpretation of my comment. Good day sir.
    - signalremotefac 7y ago
      People do not have to agree to your bad use of the English language. The term "toxic masculinity" is a creepy academic "theory" it is not an accepted truth. I think it is one of the most negative and nasty social mores of those that you are desperate to be apart of. There is nothing that turns me off more. Ps. You are assuming I am a man? How woke.
- daxorid 7y ago
  This is the standard blanket denial of an enormous number of mens' lived experiences. The vast majority of heterosexual women lose respect for a man who shows weakness, and it's certainly not "women doing what men do", as the man displaying a stiff upper lip for his partner is substantially more likely to weep with his male buddies. At risk of sounding like an MRA, we live in a society which accepts, prima facie, the lived experience of women as incontrovertible evidence of how the average man reacts to the average woman, for good or for ill. But the lived experience of men must be handwaved away as some sort of Occam's Razor-defying Rube Goldberg contraption of transitive culture. Why is it so difficult to believe that this is something that actually happens?
  - krapp 7y ago
    >The vast majority of heterosexual women lose respect for a man who shows weakness, and it's certainly not "women doing what men do", as the man displaying a stiff upper lip for his partner is substantially more likely to weep with his male buddies. I'm not certain women are as emotionally simplistic as this. Plenty are attracted to emotional vulnerability. A man who hides his emotions too much seems more likely to commit violence, after all. Then again, some women like that. Women, like men, are complex beings but unfortunately threads about masculinity and feminism here tend towards reductionism. And what I mean by "doing what men do" is reinforcing the stereotype that a man can't be masculine and also display emotion (or "show weakness") as you put it. This isn't a behavioral trait created by women and forced upon men against their will. Plenty of men who spent their childhood getting beaten by their fathers or their classmates for being too "sissy" will attest that this is an aspect of male culture created by and largely reinforced by men. No, most men wouldn't weep to their male buddies, they wouldn't dare. >Why is it so difficult to believe that this is something that actually happens? Why is it so difficult not to blame women for everything? Men aren't puppets, they have agency, they are responsible (really, far more responsible) for the nature of modern masculine culture and identity, good and ill.
    - scarmig 7y ago
      It's always interesting that, when men express their lived experiences, people will say that they're stupid and crazy. Society as a whole polices men's emotional expression. But some feminists are extraordinarily unwilling to recognize that women are at the very least coequal perpetrators of this. Hell, some (and apparently you) are unwilling to concede that women play any role at all in this. In my lived experience, my mother and female family members were much more critical of me expressing emotion than my father and male family members. Moreover, female partners police my emotional expression a lot more than male friends (or partners) do. But, go for it, keep on denying women have any agency at all in gender politics and saying it's all men's fault.
- downerending 7y ago
  All of the people that have shamed me or threatened me for crying during my life were women. I'm going to give them credit for making their own decisions.
screye 7y ago
Toxic masculinity means everything that is wrong with the image of a man in society. Men, women and children all participate in society. Thus, the problem affects everyone. It is the same reason that feminism is not solely about women. It is about changing societal perceptions of women in ways that ends up affecting everyone participating in society. Men, women and children alike.

krapp 7y ago

>(And as for "toxic masculinity", wouldn't this be better described as "toxic femininity"?) No. It's modern masculine culture that doesn't allow men to express their emotions for fear of appearing weak or "beta." The toxicity derives from that pathological aspect of masculine culture. Women doing what men do and reinforcing this toxic aspect of masculine culture are also engaging in toxic masculinity.

signalremotefac 7y ago
The point the person is trying to make is describing masculine behaviours as toxic, by simply prefixing toxic, is an example of what they are describing. Thus, it is really a toxic attidude towards masculinity and those that are male. You are even trying to describe women that "adopt" these behaviours as being bad for being more male. Thus, guilty and worthless. As if they are not A True Woman.
- krapp 7y ago
  >The point the person is trying to make is describing masculine behaviours as toxic, by simply prefixing toxic, is an example of what you are describing. No, that's not what toxic masculinity describes. But I've been down this rabbithole before on HN, and I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you otherwise. >You are even trying to describe women that "adopt" these behaviours as being bad for being more male. Thus, guilty and worthless. As if they are not A True Woman. That's not even a remotely charitable or accurate interpretation of my comment. Good day sir.
  - signalremotefac 7y ago
    People do not have to agree to your bad use of the English language. The term "toxic masculinity" is a creepy academic "theory" it is not an accepted truth. I think it is one of the most negative and nasty social mores of those that you are desperate to be apart of. There is nothing that turns me off more. Ps. You are assuming I am a man? How woke.
daxorid 7y ago
This is the standard blanket denial of an enormous number of mens' lived experiences. The vast majority of heterosexual women lose respect for a man who shows weakness, and it's certainly not "women doing what men do", as the man displaying a stiff upper lip for his partner is substantially more likely to weep with his male buddies. At risk of sounding like an MRA, we live in a society which accepts, prima facie, the lived experience of women as incontrovertible evidence of how the average man reacts to the average woman, for good or for ill. But the lived experience of men must be handwaved away as some sort of Occam's Razor-defying Rube Goldberg contraption of transitive culture. Why is it so difficult to believe that this is something that actually happens?
- krapp 7y ago
  >The vast majority of heterosexual women lose respect for a man who shows weakness, and it's certainly not "women doing what men do", as the man displaying a stiff upper lip for his partner is substantially more likely to weep with his male buddies. I'm not certain women are as emotionally simplistic as this. Plenty are attracted to emotional vulnerability. A man who hides his emotions too much seems more likely to commit violence, after all. Then again, some women like that. Women, like men, are complex beings but unfortunately threads about masculinity and feminism here tend towards reductionism. And what I mean by "doing what men do" is reinforcing the stereotype that a man can't be masculine and also display emotion (or "show weakness") as you put it. This isn't a behavioral trait created by women and forced upon men against their will. Plenty of men who spent their childhood getting beaten by their fathers or their classmates for being too "sissy" will attest that this is an aspect of male culture created by and largely reinforced by men. No, most men wouldn't weep to their male buddies, they wouldn't dare. >Why is it so difficult to believe that this is something that actually happens? Why is it so difficult not to blame women for everything? Men aren't puppets, they have agency, they are responsible (really, far more responsible) for the nature of modern masculine culture and identity, good and ill.
  - scarmig 7y ago
    It's always interesting that, when men express their lived experiences, people will say that they're stupid and crazy. Society as a whole polices men's emotional expression. But some feminists are extraordinarily unwilling to recognize that women are at the very least coequal perpetrators of this. Hell, some (and apparently you) are unwilling to concede that women play any role at all in this. In my lived experience, my mother and female family members were much more critical of me expressing emotion than my father and male family members. Moreover, female partners police my emotional expression a lot more than male friends (or partners) do. But, go for it, keep on denying women have any agency at all in gender politics and saying it's all men's fault.
downerending 7y ago
All of the people that have shamed me or threatened me for crying during my life were women. I'm going to give them credit for making their own decisions.

screye 7y ago

Toxic masculinity means everything that is wrong with the image of a man in society. Men, women and children all participate in society. Thus, the problem affects everyone. It is the same reason that feminism is not solely about women. It is about changing societal perceptions of women in ways that ends up affecting everyone participating in society. Men, women and children alike.