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> creating more opportunities for young new grads to break in Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder fo

by hpoe 7y ago

> creating more opportunities for young new grads to break in Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier, by increasing the commitment an employer is expected to make to an employee, and by making it harder to remove employees that need to be removed but can't because of their seniority with the union.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
conanbatt 7y ago
It is the only way a union can raise wages for its members. But that won't work in the video game industry, there's no barriers to the industry.
- metalliqaz 7y ago
  "no barriers to the industry" lol
  - conanbatt 7y ago
    You can make a game and publish for $$ in a day. In fact, many people do.
Tiktaalik 7y ago
The screen writers guild has some systems in place to ensure that a certain amount of scripts from 'new writers' have to be taken in. Not sure how effective that is, but that's a thing. I was basically thinking about my present company that has done a great job of bringing in coops from local universities for work terms. We've had a great experience with this. However, this is one of the only games companies I've worked at that does it.
- mc32 7y ago
  How does that square with what David Simon has to say in, “But I’m not a lawyer. I’m an Agent”?[1]. It seems pretty fanning about what happens to novices in the industry. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19570735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19570735
- walshemj 7y ago
  As does BECTU in the UK to encourage diversity - that's the equivalent of IATSE
slg 7y ago
One key difference for unions is whether a job is project based or more of a permanent placement. The problems you mentioned are often a problem in the latter like with teacher or police unions. Project based workplaces are different in that they have a natural turnover and people need to be continually rehired so seniority or difficult to remove employees are less of a problem. The various unions in the entertainment industry are a good example of this. Video games are closer to the project based end of the spectrum.
false-mirror 7y ago
There's definitely a tension. When employers can treat employees as disposable, there is more firing and thus (sometimes) more hiring. However, unions increase the value of jobs. Union workers enjoy a better QOL and career stability, and they can actually build a life for themselves without worrying about being fired on a whimsy. Luckily for something like game development, it is a growing industry with a low barrier to entry. Finding a job or starting a new company is very realistic-- until the next economic downturn, which will hurt union and non-union workers alike
- uerobert 7y ago
  Game dev is not a low barrier to entry industry. It is WAY easier to get a SDE job at a FAANG straight out of college than it is to get a job as a programmer at a big name studio, even with experience.
  - unapologetic 7y ago
    lol, no. Maybe at a place like Valve, but that's a special case. a private company swimming in cash and having basically zero urgency to innovate or produce even derivative content.
    - uerobert 7y ago
      Any of the Rockstar Games studios, Naughty Dog, SCE Santa Monica, Bungie, Epic Games, any of the main Activision-Blizzard (Ininity Ward, Treyarcht) or EA studios (Respawn), etc... basically any major studio rarely hire straight out of college.
  - shitpostbot 7y ago
    I'm pretty sure there are exactly zero SWEs weighing a 200k rest-and-vest offer from google and an 80k slave labor contract from Blizzard and struggling to decide where to go. I'd be interested to be proven wrong though
reaperducer 7y ago
Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier My observation has been the opposite. I believe because the unions have an interest in increasing their membership, not letting it atrophy and decrease due to time and deaths. A union that doesn't have a growing membership is a union that will disappear. In fact, some unions I've seen have teams of people (including lawyers) whose sole purpose is taking illegal immigrants working in their industry and getting them properly documented and teaching them English for free so that they will eventually join the union. Where I have seen this is in carpenters, bartenders, maids, food service, stagehands, and a few others. The industries you've seen may be different.
- ZeroGravitas 7y ago
  Worth noting that if they didn't do this, then those same people would be easily exploitable competition in their profession, so it's probably self-interest even for the individual existing union members, as well as the union itself to bring them inside the system.
  - sudosysgen 7y ago
    Yep, it benefits everyone except exploitative employers that hire illegal immigrants to treat them poorly
- mc32 7y ago
  My experience is that new members subsidize veteran members as junior non-full time pay in but don’t get a lot back.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    That applies to pretty much everything in life — The more you put in, the more you get out.
    - mc32 7y ago
unapologetic 7y ago
you still need people. Less open jobs because people aren't switching every 18 months doesn't sound like a bad things.
trianglem 7y ago
Not true, afaik unions make it easier to get the job initially if you have the right education/credentials
walshemj 7y ago
Your repeating anti union propaganda here and M&P unions are not the same as American "trade" union's What they do do is make it harder to get rid of experienced people and replace them with cheaper ones.
everdev 7y ago
> everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in I'd imagine unions are most prevalent in industries with a surplus of workers. If you have a rapid growth industry with competitive hiring practices, you're probably getting treated great and courted to switch jobs for higher pay pretty frequently. If your industry is stagnant and management is constantly trying to replace you with less expensive workers that can be quickly trained to do the same job I can see why there would be a strong desire to unionize. In that sense, I can see how the union would be protecting it's workforce by stemming the inflow of new employees. The fewer the supply of workers, the higher demand for the one's you have.

by hpoe 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

conanbatt 7y ago

It is the only way a union can raise wages for its members. But that won't work in the video game industry, there's no barriers to the industry.

metalliqaz 7y ago
"no barriers to the industry" lol
- conanbatt 7y ago
  You can make a game and publish for $$ in a day. In fact, many people do.

Tiktaalik 7y ago

The screen writers guild has some systems in place to ensure that a certain amount of scripts from 'new writers' have to be taken in. Not sure how effective that is, but that's a thing. I was basically thinking about my present company that has done a great job of bringing in coops from local universities for work terms. We've had a great experience with this. However, this is one of the only games companies I've worked at that does it.

mc32 7y ago
How does that square with what David Simon has to say in, “But I’m not a lawyer. I’m an Agent”?[1]. It seems pretty fanning about what happens to novices in the industry. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19570735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19570735
walshemj 7y ago
As does BECTU in the UK to encourage diversity - that's the equivalent of IATSE

slg 7y ago

One key difference for unions is whether a job is project based or more of a permanent placement. The problems you mentioned are often a problem in the latter like with teacher or police unions. Project based workplaces are different in that they have a natural turnover and people need to be continually rehired so seniority or difficult to remove employees are less of a problem. The various unions in the entertainment industry are a good example of this. Video games are closer to the project based end of the spectrum.

false-mirror 7y ago

There's definitely a tension. When employers can treat employees as disposable, there is more firing and thus (sometimes) more hiring. However, unions increase the value of jobs. Union workers enjoy a better QOL and career stability, and they can actually build a life for themselves without worrying about being fired on a whimsy. Luckily for something like game development, it is a growing industry with a low barrier to entry. Finding a job or starting a new company is very realistic-- until the next economic downturn, which will hurt union and non-union workers alike

uerobert 7y ago
Game dev is not a low barrier to entry industry. It is WAY easier to get a SDE job at a FAANG straight out of college than it is to get a job as a programmer at a big name studio, even with experience.
- unapologetic 7y ago
  lol, no. Maybe at a place like Valve, but that's a special case. a private company swimming in cash and having basically zero urgency to innovate or produce even derivative content.
  - uerobert 7y ago
    Any of the Rockstar Games studios, Naughty Dog, SCE Santa Monica, Bungie, Epic Games, any of the main Activision-Blizzard (Ininity Ward, Treyarcht) or EA studios (Respawn), etc... basically any major studio rarely hire straight out of college.
- shitpostbot 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure there are exactly zero SWEs weighing a 200k rest-and-vest offer from google and an 80k slave labor contract from Blizzard and struggling to decide where to go. I'd be interested to be proven wrong though

reaperducer 7y ago

Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier My observation has been the opposite. I believe because the unions have an interest in increasing their membership, not letting it atrophy and decrease due to time and deaths. A union that doesn't have a growing membership is a union that will disappear. In fact, some unions I've seen have teams of people (including lawyers) whose sole purpose is taking illegal immigrants working in their industry and getting them properly documented and teaching them English for free so that they will eventually join the union. Where I have seen this is in carpenters, bartenders, maids, food service, stagehands, and a few others. The industries you've seen may be different.

ZeroGravitas 7y ago
Worth noting that if they didn't do this, then those same people would be easily exploitable competition in their profession, so it's probably self-interest even for the individual existing union members, as well as the union itself to bring them inside the system.
- sudosysgen 7y ago
  Yep, it benefits everyone except exploitative employers that hire illegal immigrants to treat them poorly
mc32 7y ago
My experience is that new members subsidize veteran members as junior non-full time pay in but don’t get a lot back.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  That applies to pretty much everything in life — The more you put in, the more you get out.
  - mc32 7y ago

unapologetic 7y ago

you still need people. Less open jobs because people aren't switching every 18 months doesn't sound like a bad things.

trianglem 7y ago

Not true, afaik unions make it easier to get the job initially if you have the right education/credentials

walshemj 7y ago

Your repeating anti union propaganda here and M&P unions are not the same as American "trade" union's What they do do is make it harder to get rid of experienced people and replace them with cheaper ones.

everdev 7y ago

> everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in I'd imagine unions are most prevalent in industries with a surplus of workers. If you have a rapid growth industry with competitive hiring practices, you're probably getting treated great and courted to switch jobs for higher pay pretty frequently. If your industry is stagnant and management is constantly trying to replace you with less expensive workers that can be quickly trained to do the same job I can see why there would be a strong desire to unionize. In that sense, I can see how the union would be protecting it's workforce by stemming the inflow of new employees. The fewer the supply of workers, the higher demand for the one's you have.