4 ms·

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to exa

by umvi 7y ago

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to examine how other countries do unions because I agree, the one union I was in for a short time (teachers' union in California - I was basically forced to join even though the job was only temporary) felt like a ball and chain around my ankle taking a cut of my pay more than I felt like it was empowering me.

crdoconnor 7y ago
Employers tend to be a lot more hostile to unions in the US. This manifests with deliberately spread FUD about unions (e.g. the ridiculous Walmart video), covert attempts to sabotage, depiction of schoolteachers as terrorists (by the Kentucky governor) and, in one rather extreme case, aerial bombardment of striking workers.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  It’s definitely an issue of perception. Call it a guild instead and gamedevs will flock to join.
- claudeganon 7y ago
  Beyond that, you can’t really compare US unions to European ones because of the virulent anti-communism of US politics. In Europe, following the war, left wing coalitions of socialists, communists, and left liberals secured major parliamentary victories for workers. In the US, by contrast, sector-wide bargaining was banned, strikes were limited, and anyone with vaguely Marxist sympathies was purged from politics, the labor movement, and many industries through state intimidation and violence. Any comparison of unions across countries, and the shortcomings of American ones, has to be understood through this historical lens.
  - sdenton4 7y ago
    Yeah, it's a great feedback loop: pass piles of laws making unions ineffective, then watch as workers complain about how their unions are ineffective. Add propaganda videos (a la walmart) to the mix, and stir.
  - turk73 7y ago
    If I had a time machine the first thing I would do is go back and smother baby Karl Marx.
- praptak 7y ago
  See also Coca Cola union killings in Colombia.
- unapologetic 7y ago
  Why is this grayed out? Wrongthink?
  - crdoconnor 7y ago
    Lots of people who employ developers and wannabe entrepreneurs on hacker news.
duxup 7y ago
My concern is most of the tech union type initiatives in the US are from ... existing US unions. These orgnizations are NOT the places to start.
- claudeganon 7y ago
  I would say it’s better to use and adapt an existing framework than try to build your own from scratch.
  - duxup 7y ago
    I think the existing framework is largely broken for skilled workers in the US. These unions have not evolved in decades, they're not going to. Many of these unions actively protect long time workers who are just running out the clock, refuse to advance their skills, and put up barriers to deal with them... to the detriment of new union members, and they do it by design. Keep in mind once you pick a union ... that's it, there's no need for that union to change, there is no competition.
- Tiktaalik 7y ago
  As the article notes, in effect they have to be, since no one in the games industry has any experience with labour organizing. Outside help from an existing union is the way to jump start the process.
L_Rahman 7y ago
Public sector unions are a completely different ball game than private sector unions. I whole heartedly believe in worker organization and believe that tech workers should unionize, but it is also true that in a lot of different pieces of this country public sector unionization has been an unmitigated disaster. In any niche of our society that is not legible to the average person, public sector unions + the morass that is local politics in the US creates a downward spiral between public sector union workers and the politicians they bring into power. The subway in NYC for example is broken for a number of reasons, but high on that list are the efforts of the transit worker union to block improvements in operational performance and their lobbying for Andrew Cuomo who might be one of the most transit hating governors in the last 100 years of New York politics.
- yibg 7y ago
  Employer and union incentives need to align to some extent. The issue with a lot of public sector unions I see is there is no incentive for the union to be effective. Not like the employer will go bankrupt.
ars 7y ago
> we need to examine how other countries do unions The biggest difference is that in other countries, the employee can pick any union they want, while in the US each employer is locked to a single union. That single difference has a HUGE impact.
unapologetic 7y ago
The US had a fine track record until they started pushing anti-union propaganda, started having union corruption and corresponding aggressive police crackdowns, and the government abandoned the working class. Now Michigan is a right to work state and free trade has killed thousands of domestic manufacturing jobs.

by umvi 7y ago

crdoconnor 7y ago

Employers tend to be a lot more hostile to unions in the US. This manifests with deliberately spread FUD about unions (e.g. the ridiculous Walmart video), covert attempts to sabotage, depiction of schoolteachers as terrorists (by the Kentucky governor) and, in one rather extreme case, aerial bombardment of striking workers.

goatinaboat 7y ago
It’s definitely an issue of perception. Call it a guild instead and gamedevs will flock to join.
claudeganon 7y ago
Beyond that, you can’t really compare US unions to European ones because of the virulent anti-communism of US politics. In Europe, following the war, left wing coalitions of socialists, communists, and left liberals secured major parliamentary victories for workers. In the US, by contrast, sector-wide bargaining was banned, strikes were limited, and anyone with vaguely Marxist sympathies was purged from politics, the labor movement, and many industries through state intimidation and violence. Any comparison of unions across countries, and the shortcomings of American ones, has to be understood through this historical lens.
- sdenton4 7y ago
  Yeah, it's a great feedback loop: pass piles of laws making unions ineffective, then watch as workers complain about how their unions are ineffective. Add propaganda videos (a la walmart) to the mix, and stir.
- turk73 7y ago
  If I had a time machine the first thing I would do is go back and smother baby Karl Marx.
praptak 7y ago
See also Coca Cola union killings in Colombia.
unapologetic 7y ago
Why is this grayed out? Wrongthink?
- crdoconnor 7y ago
  Lots of people who employ developers and wannabe entrepreneurs on hacker news.

duxup 7y ago

My concern is most of the tech union type initiatives in the US are from ... existing US unions. These orgnizations are NOT the places to start.

claudeganon 7y ago
I would say it’s better to use and adapt an existing framework than try to build your own from scratch.
- duxup 7y ago
  I think the existing framework is largely broken for skilled workers in the US. These unions have not evolved in decades, they're not going to. Many of these unions actively protect long time workers who are just running out the clock, refuse to advance their skills, and put up barriers to deal with them... to the detriment of new union members, and they do it by design. Keep in mind once you pick a union ... that's it, there's no need for that union to change, there is no competition.
Tiktaalik 7y ago
As the article notes, in effect they have to be, since no one in the games industry has any experience with labour organizing. Outside help from an existing union is the way to jump start the process.

L_Rahman 7y ago

Public sector unions are a completely different ball game than private sector unions. I whole heartedly believe in worker organization and believe that tech workers should unionize, but it is also true that in a lot of different pieces of this country public sector unionization has been an unmitigated disaster. In any niche of our society that is not legible to the average person, public sector unions + the morass that is local politics in the US creates a downward spiral between public sector union workers and the politicians they bring into power. The subway in NYC for example is broken for a number of reasons, but high on that list are the efforts of the transit worker union to block improvements in operational performance and their lobbying for Andrew Cuomo who might be one of the most transit hating governors in the last 100 years of New York politics.

yibg 7y ago
Employer and union incentives need to align to some extent. The issue with a lot of public sector unions I see is there is no incentive for the union to be effective. Not like the employer will go bankrupt.

ars 7y ago

> we need to examine how other countries do unions The biggest difference is that in other countries, the employee can pick any union they want, while in the US each employer is locked to a single union. That single difference has a HUGE impact.

unapologetic 7y ago

The US had a fine track record until they started pushing anti-union propaganda, started having union corruption and corresponding aggressive police crackdowns, and the government abandoned the working class. Now Michigan is a right to work state and free trade has killed thousands of domestic manufacturing jobs.