4 ms·

Can’t say for video game industry. But software engineers are both in hot demand and well compensated, as such, I personally and the people I know are mostly co

Can’t say for video game industry. But software engineers are both in hot demand and well compensated, as such, I personally and the people I know are mostly content and not likely to join an union.

empath75 7y ago
The best time to start a union is exactly when you're in hot demand and well compensated. That's when you have the most leverage.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  I find this untrue. historically, unions represent jobs that are most at risk from replacement - e.g. by strikebreakers. Which is opposite end of the spectrum from 'hot demand and well compensated'. In fact, unionization are spurred by the opposite of these things.
  - tomtheelder 7y ago
    You've missed their point a bit here. It wasn't that the most common time to start a union is when you have leverage, it was that that is the best time. Software workers could achieve huge results if they collectively bargained, and the relative scarcity of labor means that if they unionize it will be comparatively difficult to skirt those unions. Also, there's not knowing what you've got until it's gone. Software workers have the power to organize now, but there is good reason to believe that, for one reason or another, that power will decrease at some point in the future. That has happened to practically every industry in history. Software workers would be wise to organize when they can, instead of waiting until they are forced to.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    If you are at risk of strikebreakers your union effort will fail (unless protected by law) because the strikebreakers will just take over your job. When it would take some time to train the strikebreakers the union can work: give us our demands or spend far more training the strikebreakers.
criddell 7y ago
I wouldn't rule it out. Professional athletes have great unions. Hollywood screenwriters, actors, and directors have great unions (or guilds). Couldn't software engineers benefit from a similar organization?
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  No. Not if you understand how unions work. Professional sports leagues have unions because they are necessary. There is exactly 1 league, and you’re required to sign exclusivity contracts with your team. You are owned by your team. You play for them, or you don’t play at all. You move your family to whatever shitty city bought your rights. Only rarely does a player get any say, unless they’re a superstar with a special contract. They’re also very prone to injuries that can take them out during their narrow prime earning window, and that risk needs to be hedged. As does the risk of permanent damage, including brain damage, by being required to play when it is not safe. And NBA players actually got paid very poorly before the union. Far worse than software engineers. They had no leverage. There are many reasons for players to have unions, and none of them apply to software developers. The Hollywood situation was similar. New actors were locked up in bad contracts. But generally, all of Hollywood is a mess of negotiations, unconventional and confusing compensation structures, scheming lawyers, and conflicts of interest all over the place. These also don’t really apply to software developers. We don’t have agents, royalties, multi-year exclusivity, or a huge population willing to fight for scraps and slave for free in hopes of getting a big break (game development - which has much more in common with Hollywood - being an exception). Unions are not free. The layer of bureaucracy that they introduce is a huge cost, and one that many companies cannot bear. Startups definitely can’t. Then you have to account for the widespread abuse by employees in unions. Your salary has to subsidize everybody who decides they’re going to be lazy and take a free ride by exploiting union rules. Those people are everywhere in unions. And it’s completely rational. Most people will do the minimum required for the maximum take, especially when there is no risk to doing so. Sometimes, this cost is worth it. But, if we ranked industries in need of a union, I can’t really think of anything that would have less need for a union than software development.
  - criddell 7y ago
vvanders 7y ago
Software engineers aren't the only one that work in that industry. On the dev-side there's a couple routes out, however on the design and art side adjacent industries are even worse meat-grinders or not an option.
- throwaway17_17 7y ago
  But there in lies the problem. Most of the discussion opposed to union come from the actual software engineering aspect, but the unionization proposals are attempting to cover the multitude of sub-professions that compromise game development. It is often glossed over that actual engineers have vastly different options, priorities, and working conditions than these other workers. Carmack’s options should be seen as addressing engineering conditions, I would assume. The negative articles seem to address animators, level layout designers and, most particularly, QA employees. These roles have a wildly different work trajectory than an exiting software engineer. I’m all for these workers finding some leverage, but I think engineers linking there prospective and fate to people in such a disparate place.
  - meheleventyone 7y ago
    The concept is called solidarity. Workers with more leverage should have the backs of those with less rather than seeing them as an anchor.
    - throwaway17_17 7y ago
      I can understand the general philosophic argument for ‘worker’ solidarity, but in practice that is not how unions work. Union represent professions and then those unions often pool resource under a larger labor umbrella. It is why the the Screen Actors Guild is separate from Cinamatographer Guild, Screenwriters Guild, production laborers union, etc in the motion picture industry. Further it’s why plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc have separate unions in the construction field. If software engineers feel they need the leverage of organized labor that is a decision these developers can make and then act on, but that is very different than suborning the needs a very particular profession to the needs and desires of complete separate groups. As a note, the solidarity in these situations tend to come as reciprocal strike agreements, i.e. the SAG not working during the Screenwriters Guild strike in the last decade (I think it was post 2010 anyway)
adamsea 7y ago
True however as soon as market conditions change and software engineers aren't in demand, which will at some point happen (hopefully not soon though), then businesses will adjust. The best time to unionize is WHILE software engineers have power and leverage. And for examples of kinds of unions people don't usually think about, I believe there is an NBA players union. The screenwriters guild of america functions as a union, I think. Lots of unions in Hollywood. I wanted to give some examples of high-status or high-compensation professions where professionals have chosen to unionize.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  > True however as soon as market conditions change and software engineers aren't in demand I find this unlikely, while boom and bust cycles are normal. If software engineers aren't in demand, other people will have it worse. Demand for software engineer will then pick up faster. I don't see any major employment segment that has higher future prospect or long term security than software engineering.
Tiktaalik 7y ago
Compensation is only one axis here. There's many of other things unions can do to improve the life of video game workers independent of seeking higher wages. Eg. compensation time, influence over production schedules, transparency, credits...
dopylitty 7y ago
It may be true that programmers at the top 5-10 tech companies are well compensated but the vast majority of tech workers (programmers and operations) work for enterprises and small shops where there are some really egregious practices and not particularly great compensation. Being in hot demand means little when these practices are universal in the industry. This is the perfect scenario for workers to get together to demand better treatment and ending of these sorts of practices: Uncompensated overtime, On-call (if the work is important pay someone to be available to do it), Expectations of 24/7 uncompensated availability, H1-B use/abuse, Lack of training on systems workers are responsible for, Age discrimination, Lack of decent work environment (open plan offices), Lack of vacation options (sometimes masquerading as unlimited time off)
abathur 7y ago
Compensation is an important role for unions, but it isn't the only thing a union can address. For example (with the caveat that I'm not certain about its actual legality and how effectively unions could push back on these contract provisions), but I find employers asserting ownership over open-source projects/code people write in their free time particularly dystopic.

empath75 7y ago

The best time to start a union is exactly when you're in hot demand and well compensated. That's when you have the most leverage.

Aperocky 7y ago
I find this untrue. historically, unions represent jobs that are most at risk from replacement - e.g. by strikebreakers. Which is opposite end of the spectrum from 'hot demand and well compensated'. In fact, unionization are spurred by the opposite of these things.
- tomtheelder 7y ago
  You've missed their point a bit here. It wasn't that the most common time to start a union is when you have leverage, it was that that is the best time. Software workers could achieve huge results if they collectively bargained, and the relative scarcity of labor means that if they unionize it will be comparatively difficult to skirt those unions. Also, there's not knowing what you've got until it's gone. Software workers have the power to organize now, but there is good reason to believe that, for one reason or another, that power will decrease at some point in the future. That has happened to practically every industry in history. Software workers would be wise to organize when they can, instead of waiting until they are forced to.
- bluGill 7y ago
  If you are at risk of strikebreakers your union effort will fail (unless protected by law) because the strikebreakers will just take over your job. When it would take some time to train the strikebreakers the union can work: give us our demands or spend far more training the strikebreakers.

criddell 7y ago

I wouldn't rule it out. Professional athletes have great unions. Hollywood screenwriters, actors, and directors have great unions (or guilds). Couldn't software engineers benefit from a similar organization?

lawnchair_larry 7y ago
No. Not if you understand how unions work. Professional sports leagues have unions because they are necessary. There is exactly 1 league, and you’re required to sign exclusivity contracts with your team. You are owned by your team. You play for them, or you don’t play at all. You move your family to whatever shitty city bought your rights. Only rarely does a player get any say, unless they’re a superstar with a special contract. They’re also very prone to injuries that can take them out during their narrow prime earning window, and that risk needs to be hedged. As does the risk of permanent damage, including brain damage, by being required to play when it is not safe. And NBA players actually got paid very poorly before the union. Far worse than software engineers. They had no leverage. There are many reasons for players to have unions, and none of them apply to software developers. The Hollywood situation was similar. New actors were locked up in bad contracts. But generally, all of Hollywood is a mess of negotiations, unconventional and confusing compensation structures, scheming lawyers, and conflicts of interest all over the place. These also don’t really apply to software developers. We don’t have agents, royalties, multi-year exclusivity, or a huge population willing to fight for scraps and slave for free in hopes of getting a big break (game development - which has much more in common with Hollywood - being an exception). Unions are not free. The layer of bureaucracy that they introduce is a huge cost, and one that many companies cannot bear. Startups definitely can’t. Then you have to account for the widespread abuse by employees in unions. Your salary has to subsidize everybody who decides they’re going to be lazy and take a free ride by exploiting union rules. Those people are everywhere in unions. And it’s completely rational. Most people will do the minimum required for the maximum take, especially when there is no risk to doing so. Sometimes, this cost is worth it. But, if we ranked industries in need of a union, I can’t really think of anything that would have less need for a union than software development.
- criddell 7y ago

vvanders 7y ago

Software engineers aren't the only one that work in that industry. On the dev-side there's a couple routes out, however on the design and art side adjacent industries are even worse meat-grinders or not an option.

throwaway17_17 7y ago
But there in lies the problem. Most of the discussion opposed to union come from the actual software engineering aspect, but the unionization proposals are attempting to cover the multitude of sub-professions that compromise game development. It is often glossed over that actual engineers have vastly different options, priorities, and working conditions than these other workers. Carmack’s options should be seen as addressing engineering conditions, I would assume. The negative articles seem to address animators, level layout designers and, most particularly, QA employees. These roles have a wildly different work trajectory than an exiting software engineer. I’m all for these workers finding some leverage, but I think engineers linking there prospective and fate to people in such a disparate place.
- meheleventyone 7y ago
  The concept is called solidarity. Workers with more leverage should have the backs of those with less rather than seeing them as an anchor.
  - throwaway17_17 7y ago
    I can understand the general philosophic argument for ‘worker’ solidarity, but in practice that is not how unions work. Union represent professions and then those unions often pool resource under a larger labor umbrella. It is why the the Screen Actors Guild is separate from Cinamatographer Guild, Screenwriters Guild, production laborers union, etc in the motion picture industry. Further it’s why plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc have separate unions in the construction field. If software engineers feel they need the leverage of organized labor that is a decision these developers can make and then act on, but that is very different than suborning the needs a very particular profession to the needs and desires of complete separate groups. As a note, the solidarity in these situations tend to come as reciprocal strike agreements, i.e. the SAG not working during the Screenwriters Guild strike in the last decade (I think it was post 2010 anyway)

adamsea 7y ago

True however as soon as market conditions change and software engineers aren't in demand, which will at some point happen (hopefully not soon though), then businesses will adjust. The best time to unionize is WHILE software engineers have power and leverage. And for examples of kinds of unions people don't usually think about, I believe there is an NBA players union. The screenwriters guild of america functions as a union, I think. Lots of unions in Hollywood. I wanted to give some examples of high-status or high-compensation professions where professionals have chosen to unionize.

Aperocky 7y ago
> True however as soon as market conditions change and software engineers aren't in demand I find this unlikely, while boom and bust cycles are normal. If software engineers aren't in demand, other people will have it worse. Demand for software engineer will then pick up faster. I don't see any major employment segment that has higher future prospect or long term security than software engineering.

Tiktaalik 7y ago

Compensation is only one axis here. There's many of other things unions can do to improve the life of video game workers independent of seeking higher wages. Eg. compensation time, influence over production schedules, transparency, credits...

dopylitty 7y ago

It may be true that programmers at the top 5-10 tech companies are well compensated but the vast majority of tech workers (programmers and operations) work for enterprises and small shops where there are some really egregious practices and not particularly great compensation. Being in hot demand means little when these practices are universal in the industry. This is the perfect scenario for workers to get together to demand better treatment and ending of these sorts of practices: Uncompensated overtime, On-call (if the work is important pay someone to be available to do it), Expectations of 24/7 uncompensated availability, H1-B use/abuse, Lack of training on systems workers are responsible for, Age discrimination, Lack of decent work environment (open plan offices), Lack of vacation options (sometimes masquerading as unlimited time off)

abathur 7y ago

Compensation is an important role for unions, but it isn't the only thing a union can address. For example (with the caveat that I'm not certain about its actual legality and how effectively unions could push back on these contract provisions), but I find employers asserting ownership over open-source projects/code people write in their free time particularly dystopic.