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Is "a Shambles" British or something? I've always heard it as "in Shambles"

by umvi 7y ago

cpach 7y ago
AFAICT ”a shambles” is correct usage. See https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/24/in-shambles-a-shambles/ https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/24/in-shambles-a-shambles/
- OGWhales 7y ago
  Neat, but don't know if I can switch because of how it rolls off the tongue.
  - umvi 7y ago
    It got easier for me once I learned that "shambles" is a noun that is a synonym of "slaughterhouse". Once I learned that, I emphasized shambles slightly differently as I rolled the phrase off my tongue. "SHA-1 is a slaughterhouse" "SHA-1 is a shambles"
    - OGWhales 7y ago
      Yeah I got that from the link, I had no idea before. However, I feel like if it was "is a shamble" it would make more sense to me than "is a shambles".
- umanwizard 7y ago
  Downvoted. There's no ISO standard for English, since language is a social phenomenon. "Correct" language is whatever the community of speakers uses in practice, not what someone claims is correct in a blog post (or even a book).
  - simias 7y ago
    And the linked article showed you that, in practice, "a shambles" is perfectly correct English. It is therefore correct in a descriptivist sense. Beyond that prefixing your comment by "downvoted" is frankly silly and only serves to derail the conversation IMO.
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      "a shambles" is not used (or quite rarely used) in North America, in my experience. Which was what the OP was asking about. You are of course right that "a shambles" is perfectly fine British English, but that's beside the point.
      - kps 7y ago
        I'm in North America and have never heard ‘in shambles’, without ‘a’. If I did, I'd probably take it as uneducated sociolect.
        umvi 7y ago
        Fascinating. I'm guessing it's a regional thing where certain parts of the US say "in shambles" vs. "a shambles" vs. "in a shambles". Not sure how it would be measured, but I think a /r/dataisbeautiful map would be interesting to see.
        plopz 7y ago
        NYC here, never have heard it with an 'a'. Its always just 'in shambles'.
    - StuffedParrot 7y ago
      > And the linked article showed you that, in practice, "a shambles" is perfectly correct English. I'd think "in practice" would mean evidence of contemporary usage.
- StuffedParrot 7y ago
  ...for traditional use, maybe, but any editor worth their salt will stop you from doing so. At least in America. Many words have changed their meaning and use over the last 500 years.
dafman 7y ago
Yes, at least where I live in the south of the UK. Other phrases you might hear are "What a shambles", "That is an absolute shambles" or "Omnishambles"
- jen20 7y ago
  "Omnishambles" has a fun etymology - it comes from the political satire "The Thick of It": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnishambles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnishambles
no_flags 7y ago
"Far be the thought of this from Henry's heart, To make a shambles of the parliament-house!" -Shakespeare (Henry VI, Part 3)
- tialaramex 7y ago
  Note that in Shakespeare's time an audience would directly have understood "make a shambles" here to mean violent bloodshed in the parliament building because a "shambles" would have been a common term for somewhere you killed animals to produce meat. Which is exactly what is being described here. Henry VI part 3 is not a play about a polite disagreement settled over lunch... Today "shambles" remains in the common vocabulary, but only in a sense of things being messy or disorganised, most English readers today probably wouldn't think of literal violence and I suppose that the people who named this website, likewise, were thinking of modern usage.
ancorevard 7y ago
It's a word for a meat market, or a butcher's shop, in other words – a bloody mess.
pjc50 7y ago
Yes; in addition to the other comments, there is also the shambles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shambles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shambles (nowadays devoid of mead products but a nice picturesque place to visit if you can stand crowds. Try the bookshop)
- claudiawerner 7y ago
  I live in York and I haven't actually gone into any shops in the Shambles...

Is "a Shambles" British or something? I've always heard it as "in Shambles"

by umvi 7y ago

Is "a Shambles" British or something? I've always heard it as "in Shambles"

AFAICT ”a shambles” is correct usage. See https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/24/in-shambles-a-shambles/ https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/24/in-shambles-a-shambles/

OGWhales 7y ago
Neat, but don't know if I can switch because of how it rolls off the tongue.
- umvi 7y ago
  It got easier for me once I learned that "shambles" is a noun that is a synonym of "slaughterhouse". Once I learned that, I emphasized shambles slightly differently as I rolled the phrase off my tongue. "SHA-1 is a slaughterhouse" "SHA-1 is a shambles"
  - OGWhales 7y ago
    Yeah I got that from the link, I had no idea before. However, I feel like if it was "is a shamble" it would make more sense to me than "is a shambles".
umanwizard 7y ago
Downvoted. There's no ISO standard for English, since language is a social phenomenon. "Correct" language is whatever the community of speakers uses in practice, not what someone claims is correct in a blog post (or even a book).
- simias 7y ago
  And the linked article showed you that, in practice, "a shambles" is perfectly correct English. It is therefore correct in a descriptivist sense. Beyond that prefixing your comment by "downvoted" is frankly silly and only serves to derail the conversation IMO.
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    "a shambles" is not used (or quite rarely used) in North America, in my experience. Which was what the OP was asking about. You are of course right that "a shambles" is perfectly fine British English, but that's beside the point.
    - kps 7y ago
      I'm in North America and have never heard ‘in shambles’, without ‘a’. If I did, I'd probably take it as uneducated sociolect.
      - umvi 7y ago
        Fascinating. I'm guessing it's a regional thing where certain parts of the US say "in shambles" vs. "a shambles" vs. "in a shambles". Not sure how it would be measured, but I think a /r/dataisbeautiful map would be interesting to see.
      - plopz 7y ago
        NYC here, never have heard it with an 'a'. Its always just 'in shambles'.
  - StuffedParrot 7y ago
    > And the linked article showed you that, in practice, "a shambles" is perfectly correct English. I'd think "in practice" would mean evidence of contemporary usage.
StuffedParrot 7y ago
...for traditional use, maybe, but any editor worth their salt will stop you from doing so. At least in America. Many words have changed their meaning and use over the last 500 years.

dafman 7y ago

Yes, at least where I live in the south of the UK. Other phrases you might hear are "What a shambles", "That is an absolute shambles" or "Omnishambles"

jen20 7y ago
"Omnishambles" has a fun etymology - it comes from the political satire "The Thick of It": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnishambles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnishambles

no_flags 7y ago

"Far be the thought of this from Henry's heart, To make a shambles of the parliament-house!" -Shakespeare (Henry VI, Part 3)

tialaramex 7y ago
Note that in Shakespeare's time an audience would directly have understood "make a shambles" here to mean violent bloodshed in the parliament building because a "shambles" would have been a common term for somewhere you killed animals to produce meat. Which is exactly what is being described here. Henry VI part 3 is not a play about a polite disagreement settled over lunch... Today "shambles" remains in the common vocabulary, but only in a sense of things being messy or disorganised, most English readers today probably wouldn't think of literal violence and I suppose that the people who named this website, likewise, were thinking of modern usage.

ancorevard 7y ago

It's a word for a meat market, or a butcher's shop, in other words – a bloody mess.

pjc50 7y ago

Yes; in addition to the other comments, there is also the shambles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shambles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shambles (nowadays devoid of mead products but a nice picturesque place to visit if you can stand crowds. Try the bookshop)

claudiawerner 7y ago
I live in York and I haven't actually gone into any shops in the Shambles...