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I look at this from the opposite perspective, the person who doesn't care much for success and prestige but has to deal with the toxic side-effects of those tha

I look at this from the opposite perspective, the person who doesn't care much for success and prestige but has to deal with the toxic side-effects of those that do. I grew up an only child in as single parent household where I was taught that it's better to quietly build a stable secure foundation for your life, rather than to put yourself "out there" and hope for the best. My mothers attitude was that it is better to have a boring stable job that provides enough for you and your family than to be rich or famous. For example she implored me to study for a fall-back manual trade in case the computing degree thing didn't work out. Recently, I decided to go self-employed and do my own thing in my own time. This was driven by the fact that having worked for a few startups I couldn't deal with the success at all costs approach of some of the founders and managers. For example being forced to push out new features before they are ready, knowing that the technical debt is mounting and that it will come back to bite me one day. Trying to explain why stuff like this was a bad idea would be met with a response implying I didn't care for the company and didn't value success. I also got frequently reprimanded for refusing to do overtime on a regular basis, preferring instead to be with my family. Plus all this was usually coupled with some horrific "Fake it till you make it" promotional activities that we'd get roped in to. One of the founders went out and got himself a Porsche 911 and put an email around the office showing it off and telling us if we worked hard to make the company a success we too could afford a similar car. Lord knows how he paid for it as the company was losing €3million a year at that point. All the while I would be acutely aware of the fact that the founders had already churned through four or five failed startups. They were trying out ideas in the hope that one was succeed and make them rich and famous. If another failed they wouldn't care for the people being let go as they would just move on to their next idea. Having ambitions is good, but I think we as a society are pressured in to setting those ambitions far too high. I am worried by the rising suicide rates in many places, are we pressuring people to chase unattainable life goals until they crack? I think that is part of it.

TomMarius 7y ago
Maybe the issue is that these jobs are basically seasonal but we are trying to force them to be secure jobs in office? I can imagine there is a lot of people who like to jump project to project and not get caught in maintenance, like I do. I think these (secure job / project hopping) are very different things that shouldn't be compared, and people should not forget about the nature of the job at hand (and, IMHO, shouldn't force it to be something it is not).
- DoubleGlazing 7y ago
  I think it's more to do with the demand for talent. The people with their sights on mega success need talented tech people to bring those ideas to reality. Problem is their ain't enough of those people to go around, so as a result salaries are high - but long hours and overtime are expected. As part of the process of convincing people to do that managers try to play to our egos and say we'll e successful and rich of we do. At a previous job, a developer for a logistics firm, we got reviewed on the amount of overtime that we gave to the company. I refused to do overtime unless it was to fix a problem of my own making. My manager told me that was a very unprofessional attitude. My response was to say that I spent seven years at University getting my BSc and MSc. I lived on ramen and cheap Tennents lager. Why should I give away those hard acquired skills for free? "To be successful!!" my manager said. I told him I was successful. I earned a decent salary and was able to provide for my family and put savings aside... what more did I need? Later the MD of that company would give a speech at the summer party saying that if you put in less than 10 hours a week overtime then you didn't value success and didn't care for your family.
foobarbecue 7y ago
Reminds me of one of my favorite songs: Craftsmanship by Buck 65 https://g.co/kgs/23qdoM https://g.co/kgs/23qdoM
philbarr 7y ago
How do people like that ever get investment? Like, surely the investors must think, "well, they just screwed up their last 4 or 5 startups so maybe I'll keep my money."
- bob33212 7y ago
  They are good at pitching to investors.
- DoubleGlazing 7y ago
  Be good at selling yourself and your ideas. Try to hide your failures. Go after smaller niche VCs who don't have the resources to do proper due diligence. Play to investors greed and ego. Manipulate figures. Claim you are speaking with multiple potential funders. At the end of the day investors are human too and suscetiple to.maniulatiin, even though they may think they are more savvy than they actually are.
- pbalau 7y ago
  Failed startup could mean anything from not having a good exit to simply not having any traction. It doesn't mean the founders were shit.
celticmusic 7y ago
this is pretty much my attitude too. I'd obviously love to be bill gates rich, but never at the cost of my own ethics. And I don't understand people who are willing to leave their ethics on the floor for money. I just have a sensibility that would never allow me to be rich and a fuckhead. I know that sounds pretentious, but that's how I feel about it. I'd much rather grow a company slowly and do well by everyone who works for me than the grow big and fuck everything else. The thing is, I gave 20 hours a week for a company exactly like that for 4-5 years and I was genuinely sad when I left (it was my decision). It easily had the best working environment I've ever experienced. I LIKED the people there, and we had all been there for so long that we trusted each other. When I think about that company vs the startup culture you always read about, it's an easy decision. I like working at small companies, but not ones with that startup culture.

TomMarius 7y ago

Maybe the issue is that these jobs are basically seasonal but we are trying to force them to be secure jobs in office? I can imagine there is a lot of people who like to jump project to project and not get caught in maintenance, like I do. I think these (secure job / project hopping) are very different things that shouldn't be compared, and people should not forget about the nature of the job at hand (and, IMHO, shouldn't force it to be something it is not).

DoubleGlazing 7y ago
I think it's more to do with the demand for talent. The people with their sights on mega success need talented tech people to bring those ideas to reality. Problem is their ain't enough of those people to go around, so as a result salaries are high - but long hours and overtime are expected. As part of the process of convincing people to do that managers try to play to our egos and say we'll e successful and rich of we do. At a previous job, a developer for a logistics firm, we got reviewed on the amount of overtime that we gave to the company. I refused to do overtime unless it was to fix a problem of my own making. My manager told me that was a very unprofessional attitude. My response was to say that I spent seven years at University getting my BSc and MSc. I lived on ramen and cheap Tennents lager. Why should I give away those hard acquired skills for free? "To be successful!!" my manager said. I told him I was successful. I earned a decent salary and was able to provide for my family and put savings aside... what more did I need? Later the MD of that company would give a speech at the summer party saying that if you put in less than 10 hours a week overtime then you didn't value success and didn't care for your family.

foobarbecue 7y ago

Reminds me of one of my favorite songs: Craftsmanship by Buck 65 https://g.co/kgs/23qdoM https://g.co/kgs/23qdoM

philbarr 7y ago

How do people like that ever get investment? Like, surely the investors must think, "well, they just screwed up their last 4 or 5 startups so maybe I'll keep my money."

bob33212 7y ago
They are good at pitching to investors.
DoubleGlazing 7y ago
Be good at selling yourself and your ideas. Try to hide your failures. Go after smaller niche VCs who don't have the resources to do proper due diligence. Play to investors greed and ego. Manipulate figures. Claim you are speaking with multiple potential funders. At the end of the day investors are human too and suscetiple to.maniulatiin, even though they may think they are more savvy than they actually are.
pbalau 7y ago
Failed startup could mean anything from not having a good exit to simply not having any traction. It doesn't mean the founders were shit.

celticmusic 7y ago

this is pretty much my attitude too. I'd obviously love to be bill gates rich, but never at the cost of my own ethics. And I don't understand people who are willing to leave their ethics on the floor for money. I just have a sensibility that would never allow me to be rich and a fuckhead. I know that sounds pretentious, but that's how I feel about it. I'd much rather grow a company slowly and do well by everyone who works for me than the grow big and fuck everything else. The thing is, I gave 20 hours a week for a company exactly like that for 4-5 years and I was genuinely sad when I left (it was my decision). It easily had the best working environment I've ever experienced. I LIKED the people there, and we had all been there for so long that we trusted each other. When I think about that company vs the startup culture you always read about, it's an easy decision. I like working at small companies, but not ones with that startup culture.