3 ms·

> people just can't imagine that America is that bad at something. No. I'm just pointing out the absurd conclusions given the numbers. It really doesn't make s

> people just can't imagine that America is that bad at something. No. I'm just pointing out the absurd conclusions given the numbers. It really doesn't make statistical sense that zurich would have so much more traffic than Penn Station. Also, we are talking about NYC metro. Not the US. > First, NYC has two major rail termini (Penn and Grand Central) I know. I'm the one that pointed it out. > Zurich has just the one I believe. Even still, the population disparity is so great that it doesn't matter. > Another factor is the lack of intercity rail travel in the US. We aren't talking about the US. We are talking about NYC and its surrounding metropolitan area. > If you work different hours, say 4-12, you're screwed. NYC metro runs 24/7. And most other rail stations around the world shut down at night. > European countries run their rail stations less for 9-5 commuters and more as metro systems on larger scale. We aren't talking about countries. I'm talking about NYC. > in NY metro area, only 30% use transit (of any form!) to commute, whereas it's again closer to 50% in Zurich. Finally you get to the point. 30% of 21 million is 6.3 million. 50% of 1.8 million is .9 million. That is my point. Hell even if we boost that to 100% for zurich metropolitan, then it's 1.8 million. Which is still much smaller than 6.3 million. Even if we don't count the 62 million tourists visits to NYC ( portion of those most definitely comes through Penn Station ), I'm just not understanding that Zurich would have 50% more traffic than Penn Station. Instead of dealing with the actual stats and numbers, most of your comment was just a silly rant about the US. I get it, we don't do rail well as a nation. But we are a gigantic nation with a car/plane culture.

jcranmer 7y ago
> Even if we don't count the 62 million tourists visits to NYC ( portion of those most definitely comes through Penn Station ) Amtrak moves 10 million through Penn Station a year. That's not a hard statistic to look up. Even then, I suspect the majority of those are not even tourists: maybe 1 million (equaling 2 million trips, since you would pass through Penn Station once to arrive and once to leave) out of the 60 million are going to be. It's harder for me to get the numbers for Switzerland, because the data is published in German, which I don't speak a lick of. But Switzerland is moving a far larger portion of its population by train than the US, and even if you arrive at Zurich by airport, there's a decent chance you're taking the train into the city. (If you arrive at JFK or LaGuardia, you're unlikely to make a trip to your destination in NYC via Penn Station). > 30% of 21 million is 6.3 million That's 30% of the entire metro population. First, subtract everyone who actually lives in NYC except Queens: they're not riding the LIRR or NJT into Penn Station since they have no train station to board at. If you look at the population of Long Island minus Brooklyn, that's about 5 million people, and LIRR is carrying about 70 million people per annum. At ~80% commute traffic and assuming 250 working days per annum, that's about 112,000 people commuting into Penn Station a day (each person makes two trips) out of 5 million catchment.
- elfexec 7y ago
  > Amtrak moves 10 million through Penn Station a year. Who cares? I already said I don't care about the NJTransit, LIRR, Amtrak numbers. I can accept 110 million from those sources. What I said was that the the NYC metro numbers was missing. > That's 30% of the entire metro population. Yes. And .9 million is the entire metro population of zurich. I was trying to measure likes with likes. That's the point. > First, subtract everyone who actually lives in NYC except Queens: Why? Jesus, you are so invested in this that you build up straw man after straw man and bring up switzerland and US over and over again. For the last time, I'm talking about NYC and Zurich. Penn Station with Zurich's station. Go rant about your issues with US rail elsewhere. You act like only people from jersey, long island and connecticut use penn station. Penn Station is more than that. Ever hear of the empire state building? Ever hear of madison square garden? New Yorkers also traffic through Penn Station. If Zurich has more traffic, fine. I'm don't really care. You act like your life depends on whether Zurich or Penn Station has more traffic. My point is simply that given the actual raw numbers, it seems highly unlikely. Unless there is a data point we are missing or overlooking. My issue is with the validity of these numbers, your issue is you want to make the US look bad at all costs.
  - jcranmer 7y ago
    > Who cares? You said there are 60 million tourists, presumably to emphasize just how much traffic you'd expect NYC to have proportionally to Zurich. I'm giving you hard numbers to try to explain why Zurich's station has higher ridership than NYC, which is what I assumed you cared about. > What I said was that the the NYC metro numbers was missing. There's 60 million per annum from the two Penn Station stops. That's unlinked trips, so I don't know how many are transfers to/from commuter rail or Amtrak. But my guess is at least 50%, since there's not much in the area besides Madison Square Garden and Empire State Building (which is easier to get to from Herald Square anyways, if you can reasonably pick your midtown trunk line). > Why? So I can put into context where the 50% of Penn Station traffic that comes from the LIRR comes from. > My point is simply that given the actual raw numbers, it seems highly unlikely. And I'm trying to explain, using actual numbers, why this is the case. Mere size can't be sufficient, else you would refuse to believe that Los Angeles Union Station doesn't even service 10 million people a year. So what do you want from me, if you don't want actual hard data, but refuse to believe that Penn Station is serving less traffic than Zurich's central station?

jcranmer 7y ago

> Even if we don't count the 62 million tourists visits to NYC ( portion of those most definitely comes through Penn Station ) Amtrak moves 10 million through Penn Station a year. That's not a hard statistic to look up. Even then, I suspect the majority of those are not even tourists: maybe 1 million (equaling 2 million trips, since you would pass through Penn Station once to arrive and once to leave) out of the 60 million are going to be. It's harder for me to get the numbers for Switzerland, because the data is published in German, which I don't speak a lick of. But Switzerland is moving a far larger portion of its population by train than the US, and even if you arrive at Zurich by airport, there's a decent chance you're taking the train into the city. (If you arrive at JFK or LaGuardia, you're unlikely to make a trip to your destination in NYC via Penn Station). > 30% of 21 million is 6.3 million That's 30% of the entire metro population. First, subtract everyone who actually lives in NYC except Queens: they're not riding the LIRR or NJT into Penn Station since they have no train station to board at. If you look at the population of Long Island minus Brooklyn, that's about 5 million people, and LIRR is carrying about 70 million people per annum. At ~80% commute traffic and assuming 250 working days per annum, that's about 112,000 people commuting into Penn Station a day (each person makes two trips) out of 5 million catchment.

elfexec 7y ago
> Amtrak moves 10 million through Penn Station a year. Who cares? I already said I don't care about the NJTransit, LIRR, Amtrak numbers. I can accept 110 million from those sources. What I said was that the the NYC metro numbers was missing. > That's 30% of the entire metro population. Yes. And .9 million is the entire metro population of zurich. I was trying to measure likes with likes. That's the point. > First, subtract everyone who actually lives in NYC except Queens: Why? Jesus, you are so invested in this that you build up straw man after straw man and bring up switzerland and US over and over again. For the last time, I'm talking about NYC and Zurich. Penn Station with Zurich's station. Go rant about your issues with US rail elsewhere. You act like only people from jersey, long island and connecticut use penn station. Penn Station is more than that. Ever hear of the empire state building? Ever hear of madison square garden? New Yorkers also traffic through Penn Station. If Zurich has more traffic, fine. I'm don't really care. You act like your life depends on whether Zurich or Penn Station has more traffic. My point is simply that given the actual raw numbers, it seems highly unlikely. Unless there is a data point we are missing or overlooking. My issue is with the validity of these numbers, your issue is you want to make the US look bad at all costs.
- jcranmer 7y ago
  > Who cares? You said there are 60 million tourists, presumably to emphasize just how much traffic you'd expect NYC to have proportionally to Zurich. I'm giving you hard numbers to try to explain why Zurich's station has higher ridership than NYC, which is what I assumed you cared about. > What I said was that the the NYC metro numbers was missing. There's 60 million per annum from the two Penn Station stops. That's unlinked trips, so I don't know how many are transfers to/from commuter rail or Amtrak. But my guess is at least 50%, since there's not much in the area besides Madison Square Garden and Empire State Building (which is easier to get to from Herald Square anyways, if you can reasonably pick your midtown trunk line). > Why? So I can put into context where the 50% of Penn Station traffic that comes from the LIRR comes from. > My point is simply that given the actual raw numbers, it seems highly unlikely. And I'm trying to explain, using actual numbers, why this is the case. Mere size can't be sufficient, else you would refuse to believe that Los Angeles Union Station doesn't even service 10 million people a year. So what do you want from me, if you don't want actual hard data, but refuse to believe that Penn Station is serving less traffic than Zurich's central station?