3 ms·

Meaningless in the sense (I was probably far too throwaway and should have added context or explanation) that all religions (and most of our institutions) have

Meaningless in the sense (I was probably far too throwaway and should have added context or explanation) that all religions (and most of our institutions) have layers of human added baggage, rules for rule's sake, and things that are done because that's how they are done. Things that might have made some sense when instituted, or in the context of first century Middle East, or a Medieval religious-focused society but look increasingly anachronistic in a modern, developed world. Clearly they couldn't predict the swathe of inventions and human change any more than the US founders could predict the later interpretations and re-interpretations of their relatively simple words. As they become no longer of their time, it becomes the rule that is significant and the heritage, and becomes the heritage rather than the reason it might have been instituted way back when. Yet just about every society develops habits and rituals. Occasionally they turn out to be counter-productive to the adherents in a modern world. Now you certainly raise a good point about the experience of following -- the ritual itself can take on importance, and the community benefits are well known. Decline of community appears to be implicated in no end of modern problems, and whether secular or religious, anything that preserves it is to be lauded. I'm surprised at the discussion spun up from the oven feature -- seems like some manufacturers may interpret the feature differently to others. Which is correct, and which right for Judaism, I'm unqualified to say. A sabbath mode elevator is, to my mind, a much more obvious and clean workaround that seems to preserve the spirit of the underlying idea.

jrochkind1 7y ago
Thanks for thoughtful conversation! As an atheist with Jewish background who is thinking more about Jewish traditions these days, some thoughts are: The act of figuring out as a community the details of the rules (or 'exceptions' of they seem so) in the face of changing social conditions can itself be meaningful. It can produce meaning related to bringing people into a community of discussion and debate in which decisions are made, or of authoritarian following the orders of a designated leader who decides how you are to interpret the rules, or some combination thereof. It's all full of meaning, very meaning-producing. It may be intentional or unintentional, the kind of meaning we'd want or not want. Once you are an atheist -- or otherwise don't believe that there is a God who speaks to us in human language giving commands -- it actually frees you (singular or plural) up to alter the practices to produce the meaning you want.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Thought provoking. To paraphrase to ensure I understand correctly, the meaning is the significance of the rule being another result of debate or decree, either of which prod the community to face in the same direction. Whether or not it appears to make sense is somewhat secondary to preserving and strengthening the coherence of the community (c.f. Papal decree and infallibility)? As an atheist of Protestant heritage I've wondered on the secret sauce of religion that brings the obviously stronger sense of community, as it appears to run deeper than faith, and whether there are ways to achieve that in a secular context. Perhaps particularly difficult in an era when individual choice and consumerism is promoted as paramount. :)
  - jrochkind1 7y ago
    I mean, that's one way I've been thinking about it, yeah... whether how many religiously observant Jews would think about it that way or not, I don't know. :) But Jewish practice generally/traditionally is really big on "community" as a focus and priority, and religiously observant Jews would agree that's so, in general, I think. They would of course probably say that the reason they do things the way they do, though, is because God said so, the end. But as outside "sociologists" or "anthropologists" we can have our own interpretations, although perhaps it's rude. But then, for some interesting additional anthropology, I know increasing numbers of atheist/agnostic Jews, not from Orthodox communities, who I think have attitudes toward Jewish practice along the lines we are talking about...

jrochkind1 7y ago

Thanks for thoughtful conversation! As an atheist with Jewish background who is thinking more about Jewish traditions these days, some thoughts are: The act of figuring out as a community the details of the rules (or 'exceptions' of they seem so) in the face of changing social conditions can itself be meaningful. It can produce meaning related to bringing people into a community of discussion and debate in which decisions are made, or of authoritarian following the orders of a designated leader who decides how you are to interpret the rules, or some combination thereof. It's all full of meaning, very meaning-producing. It may be intentional or unintentional, the kind of meaning we'd want or not want. Once you are an atheist -- or otherwise don't believe that there is a God who speaks to us in human language giving commands -- it actually frees you (singular or plural) up to alter the practices to produce the meaning you want.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Thought provoking. To paraphrase to ensure I understand correctly, the meaning is the significance of the rule being another result of debate or decree, either of which prod the community to face in the same direction. Whether or not it appears to make sense is somewhat secondary to preserving and strengthening the coherence of the community (c.f. Papal decree and infallibility)? As an atheist of Protestant heritage I've wondered on the secret sauce of religion that brings the obviously stronger sense of community, as it appears to run deeper than faith, and whether there are ways to achieve that in a secular context. Perhaps particularly difficult in an era when individual choice and consumerism is promoted as paramount. :)
- jrochkind1 7y ago
  I mean, that's one way I've been thinking about it, yeah... whether how many religiously observant Jews would think about it that way or not, I don't know. :) But Jewish practice generally/traditionally is really big on "community" as a focus and priority, and religiously observant Jews would agree that's so, in general, I think. They would of course probably say that the reason they do things the way they do, though, is because God said so, the end. But as outside "sociologists" or "anthropologists" we can have our own interpretations, although perhaps it's rude. But then, for some interesting additional anthropology, I know increasing numbers of atheist/agnostic Jews, not from Orthodox communities, who I think have attitudes toward Jewish practice along the lines we are talking about...