8 ms·

7-Eleven Struck Back Against an Owner Who Took a Day Off

86 points by danso 7y ago

Waterluvian 7y ago
Aren't there a crazy number of convenience stores everywhere in Japan, and where not, there are vending machines? Also, I find something incredibly cozy about my city going to sleep at night. Almost nothing is open, not even most convenience stores, and I just find that so cozy.
- ravenstine 7y ago
  I'm the opposite. I like knowing that at 3am there's somewhere that's open where I can buy things like contact lens fluid, pain relievers, etc. (7-Eleven happens to have those)
  - booleandilemma 7y ago
    The best thing that recently happened to my living situation is a 24 hour convenience store that opened below my apartment. It’s like a 2nd fridge/pantry/medicine cabinet.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    Perhaps just plan ahead for your contact lens solution. I get that it's convenient, but working those shifts is miserable (I did it).
    - ravenstine 7y ago
      I'm an imperfect human being. I'm going to go through contact lens solution and put off replacing it until I squeeze the bottle late at night and nothing comes out. I'm glad there are people I can pay at any time of the day to fix my self-inflicted problem.
      - EpicEng 7y ago
        Sure, but it's not great fun for the person on the other side of the counter.
        jumpman500 7y ago
        Most people don’t work for fun.
        EpicEng 7y ago
        I imagine you understood what I meant by "not fun", but ok. I suppose my view is, if you can't plan ahead for your trivial purchases, I don't really care. I'd rather just shut the store down and let you bemoan the fact that you can't buy snacks and Tylenol at 3am.
        cryptoz 7y ago
        I personally find this a particularly cruel take. It implies that nobody is poor, nobody has accidents ever, like a spilled bottle of pills, and that there should be no capitalism at all. It's very confusing - if people are willing or want to start a business that is open at night, with a goal of supplying medicine, food, and other necessities during hours that other stores do not offer such services at all, it seems like they should be allowed to do that. Calling medicine that is potentially life-saving purchases at 3am "trivial" is unnecessarily cruel even for HN. Yes, 7-Eleven sells a lot of medicine that can save someone's life that they might not "stock up on" because they have insufficient money to stock up on every possible medicine and plan for every possible event.
        anarchodev 7y ago
        We're almost there. In "perfect" capitalism, there would be a very hot market for employees willing to work the graveyard shift, and since there was clearly a need for those workers, they would be paid quite a lot. In reality, those who work those shifts are often people who don't have much of a choice where to work, much less which hours they're assigned. Sometimes managers will be nice and keep you on a regular shift so you develop a sane sleep schedule -- not usually. Just like working on holidays, I don't bemoan anyone who wants to eat fast food, or the workers who want to make a little more money. But let's not ignore that these workers' economic situations are different than ours and usually much more dire, so talking about what they "want" can't really be divorced from the systems that keep them in relative (and actual) poverty.
    - peteretep 7y ago
      > I get that it's convenient, but working those shifts is miserable (I did it). Not earning is worse.
  - vl 7y ago
    While unrelated to the point you are making, I would suggest daily contracts - more hygienic, and don’t require fluid. I used both types and like dailies way better.
- ehnto 7y ago
  I have weird, ever changing sleep schedules and know the feeling you're talking about, but could never survive if my city slept completely. I would go stir crazy, having no where to go and no way to complete daily tasks. In any built up city you're going to have enough people working nights that it makes sense to have at least some night culture that's not centered around partying.
- ehnto 7y ago
  Convenience stores are prolific in Japan. I found travelling in Japan was like travelling on easy mode, because you could do almost everything last minute, including travel and accommodation. There were many days there where I woke up with no plan, half way through the day decided "Ah, this city looks nice", booked my train ticket 10 minutes before it departed and booked my hotel while in transit. Restaurants shut once you arrive? Not a worry, take your pick of a 7/11, Lawsons or Family Mart and get yourself stocked up to enjoy the city properly tomorrow. Try that in Australia and you'll find yourself in a rental car with no petrol, in the middle of no where with no food!
  - moretai 7y ago
    That bit about Australia sounds like a movie waiting to happen
    - viraptor 7y ago
      That's how you get Mad Max.
- gaspoweredcat 7y ago
  things are very different in japan, most shops even big ones are usually open till around 9-10pm, kombinis and many Donkis (Don Quixote for those that dont know is a giant discount store which sells almost anything imaginable) are open 24/7/365 as for the number there are indeed a staggering amount, at one point i was stood somewhere in Asakusa at around 3am, not a soul on the streets other than me but a cursory glance around and i could see 4 different kombinis that were open vending machines too are everywhere but they generally just sell drinks, ive never actually seen the supposed underwear vendors of myth, around sinsekai in osaka i saw many vendors selling beers/sake/whiskey however unlike the cigarette vendors they need no age verification, they just politely ask that those under 21 dont use them. the strangest things ive seen were a vending machine for Tenga masturbators in sapporo, a dashi (fish stock in plastic bottles with a large fish crammed in there) vendor in denden town and in sinsekai i saw a gatcha machine covered in pictures of arnie in his prime which had vibrators in Arnie gatcha: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Tat22AUq7UaEK8ueA https://photos.app.goo.gl/Tat22AUq7UaEK8ueA Dashi Vending machine: https://photos.app.goo.gl/cGJ2Uko1fGMz9zUs8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/cGJ2Uko1fGMz9zUs8 Beer & sake vendors: https://photos.app.goo.gl/TMHPn2Z7326L8Rxo9 https://photos.app.goo.gl/TMHPn2Z7326L8Rxo9
geofft 7y ago
> He said that 7-Eleven had offered to pay for his remaining inventory — owners are responsible for buying their own products from the company at wholesale prices This feels like an American MLM scam, just tuned to be actually profitable for the "owner" under normal conditions and therefore sustainable. (Is this normal for legitimate American etc. franchises too, or is this specific to Japan's setup?)
- teej 7y ago
  I don’t know about convenience store franchises but this is the model for every major fast food franchise in the US.
  - m463 7y ago
    I saw the movie "The Founder" (Michael Keaton is Ray Croc of McDonalds fame). They had trouble with francisees offering their own menus, having dirty restaurants and more... Their trick was to become a real estate company who owned the land, and then lease to the franchisee. If there was any problem, they had complete control over the franchise. That said, as a customer the whole POINT of 7-11 is to be always open. (although I wonder what stores are still open 7am-11pm instead of 24 x 7)
- p1necone 7y ago
  Not really the same thing, but I used to work for a small food business that sold bottled/canned drinks from a fridge via a contract with Frucor (New Zealand), and the prices they charged wholesale to this small business were often higher than what you could buy the drinks for retail at nearby supermarkets.
  - retsibsi 7y ago
    Would it have been illegal to buy and resell stock from the supermarkets?
    - maccard 7y ago
      No, but it's usually against the agreement you have with the supplier, which will, like this story, probably end with a terminated agreement. Depending on your local laws, the nearby supermarket might have been selling below cost, so it might not be as huge a pricing discrepancy as you imagine.
taurath 7y ago
The other side of a culture of extreme duty is a culture of extreme shame. Its not the way for humans to live. We haven't yet seen the end of its self propagation.
- peteretep 7y ago
  Tying this to Japan when 7-11 runs a virtually identical model in Thailand seems weird.
  - taurath 7y ago
    Thailand is a relatively poor country where labor is super easy to find.
    - austhrow743 7y ago
      Australia is one of the richest countries in the world and our 7 Elevens are 24/7. Along with many other businesses. There's nothing weird here. Have you never been to a city?
claudeganon 7y ago
Prior to World War II, Japan had massive syndicalist groups and labor unions that caused enough disruption to win universal male enfranchisement. Now, they have “black companies” working people to death with near impunity, while online mobs of right-wingers celebrate their behavior. Quite a horrifying trajectory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi
- anm89 7y ago
  How do you define "universal male enfranchisement“ and how do you prove that claim?
  - jdale27 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Election_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Election_Law
  - claudeganon 7y ago
    The standard definition? All men over age 25 were provided the legal right to vote. See the link jdale27 provided.
harrisonjackson 7y ago
This would be fine if he was running a store without the 7-11 name/brand. As a business owner, I do empathize with him. He wants to be his own boss and make his own hours, but he still needs to keep his commitment or he needs to dissolve it the right way. As a customer - this would be piss me off so much. There is a 24 hour fitness that I used to go to that closed at 10 pm. HOW IS THAT OKAY?? (this was years ago and still gets me worked up) This is just like that - he wants all the advantages of the franchise but isn't willing to uphold their brand. What's next? He doesn't like the coffee they source because he thinks it is too strong so he waters it down??
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- tempsy 7y ago
  Uh 7-11’s name came from the fact it was open from 7am to 11pm originally, so being open 24 hr/day is not an inherent promise of the brand.
  - flexie 7y ago
    You are absolutely right (1) and I have no idea why people down vote you, even if they think its irrelevant. We, here at our office desks, are quick to demand that this store or that service is open 24/7. The guy needed a day off. Go somewhere else and get your chocolate bar. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-Eleven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-Eleven
    - harrisonjackson 7y ago
      Yes, as a customer I like the same experience when I go from one chain to another - that's the value of their brand. If he wants a day off then he should take a day off - I don't think 7-11 is setting his working hours or vacation days, but they do expect him to manage his store the way he's agreed to.
  - harrisonjackson 7y ago
    > Because our customers have come to rely on our stores to meet their needs and their schedules, all 7‑Eleven stores operate 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, where allowed by law. That is straight from the FAQ on their franchise site, so they do think it is part of the brand - despite the history of their name, which I'll admit I didn't know - and thank you for the TIL moment. https://franchise.7-eleven.com/franchise/faq https://franchise.7-eleven.com/franchise/faq
austhrow743 7y ago
Shame on the New York Times for such a bs title. They care that he closed the store not that he took the day off. "Man loses franchising rights after violating core aspect of the franchise brand" doesn't have the same ring to it I guess.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  Shame on you for not reading the article. The entire point was that as a small franchise owner he has to work 24/7 on the clock every day of the week due to the company off-loading all of the risk and issues onto the owner. You don't see a problem with a company mandating that their employees work every single hour of every single day?
  - austhrow743 7y ago
    >The entire point was that as a small franchise owner he has to work 24/7 on the clock every day of the week That's not the entire point of being a small franchise owner at all. He is allowed to have and has employees. He is supposed to run a schedule of them to keep the business staffed around the clock. That doesn't mean he has to personally be there for every single hour that it's open! How absurd. >off-loading all of the risk and issues onto the owner. There is no offloading of all risk and issues to the business owner. All risk and issues are already inherently the owners. That's what it means to be a business owner. It's how they earn their share of the venture. If things work out you can earn a lot more money than as an employee. If things don't then you crash and burn. That's what you signed up for when you created or bought a business. >You don't see a problem with a company mandating that their employees work every single hour of every single day? Sure I do. That's in no way what happened here though. He isn't the employee of 7 Eleven. He is a business owner who has leased their brand in exchange for agreeing to certain terms. He gets more customers because people trust that his business, as a 7 Eleven, will be open all of the time and in exchange he has to be open all of the time. And again, they don't want him personally there 24/7. Just his business open.
    - michaelt 7y ago
rkachowski 7y ago
> Government figures show overwork was blamed for 246 claims related to hospitalization or death in 2018. The retail industry was one of the biggest sources, officials show. Another 568 workers took their own lives over job-related exhaustion. I find it mind blowing, and pretty damning of the culture of shame in Japan that the number of work related suicides is more than double the amount of work related hospitalizations. How doesn't this get more attention?
Markoff 7y ago
I don't get it, if he doesn't like 7-eleven franchise conditions, why he just doesn't open regular non-franchise convenience store? it's not like they have monopoly, article claims they have 40% of market, so he would join majority of other convenience store owners
- thebusby 7y ago
  Because 7/11 handles all the products and logistics to deliver items multiple times daily. Where would he get things to sell, and how would they get to his store?
  - austhrow743 7y ago
    Wholesalers. The same way the other 60% of stores get things delivered.

86 points by danso 7y ago

Aren't there a crazy number of convenience stores everywhere in Japan, and where not, there are vending machines? Also, I find something incredibly cozy about my city going to sleep at night. Almost nothing is open, not even most convenience stores, and I just find that so cozy.

ravenstine 7y ago
I'm the opposite. I like knowing that at 3am there's somewhere that's open where I can buy things like contact lens fluid, pain relievers, etc. (7-Eleven happens to have those)
- booleandilemma 7y ago
  The best thing that recently happened to my living situation is a 24 hour convenience store that opened below my apartment. It’s like a 2nd fridge/pantry/medicine cabinet.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Perhaps just plan ahead for your contact lens solution. I get that it's convenient, but working those shifts is miserable (I did it).
  - ravenstine 7y ago
    I'm an imperfect human being. I'm going to go through contact lens solution and put off replacing it until I squeeze the bottle late at night and nothing comes out. I'm glad there are people I can pay at any time of the day to fix my self-inflicted problem.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      Sure, but it's not great fun for the person on the other side of the counter.
      - jumpman500 7y ago
        Most people don’t work for fun.
        EpicEng 7y ago
        I imagine you understood what I meant by "not fun", but ok. I suppose my view is, if you can't plan ahead for your trivial purchases, I don't really care. I'd rather just shut the store down and let you bemoan the fact that you can't buy snacks and Tylenol at 3am.
        cryptoz 7y ago
        I personally find this a particularly cruel take. It implies that nobody is poor, nobody has accidents ever, like a spilled bottle of pills, and that there should be no capitalism at all. It's very confusing - if people are willing or want to start a business that is open at night, with a goal of supplying medicine, food, and other necessities during hours that other stores do not offer such services at all, it seems like they should be allowed to do that. Calling medicine that is potentially life-saving purchases at 3am "trivial" is unnecessarily cruel even for HN. Yes, 7-Eleven sells a lot of medicine that can save someone's life that they might not "stock up on" because they have insufficient money to stock up on every possible medicine and plan for every possible event.
        anarchodev 7y ago
        We're almost there. In "perfect" capitalism, there would be a very hot market for employees willing to work the graveyard shift, and since there was clearly a need for those workers, they would be paid quite a lot. In reality, those who work those shifts are often people who don't have much of a choice where to work, much less which hours they're assigned. Sometimes managers will be nice and keep you on a regular shift so you develop a sane sleep schedule -- not usually. Just like working on holidays, I don't bemoan anyone who wants to eat fast food, or the workers who want to make a little more money. But let's not ignore that these workers' economic situations are different than ours and usually much more dire, so talking about what they "want" can't really be divorced from the systems that keep them in relative (and actual) poverty.
  - peteretep 7y ago
    > I get that it's convenient, but working those shifts is miserable (I did it). Not earning is worse.
- vl 7y ago
  While unrelated to the point you are making, I would suggest daily contracts - more hygienic, and don’t require fluid. I used both types and like dailies way better.
ehnto 7y ago
I have weird, ever changing sleep schedules and know the feeling you're talking about, but could never survive if my city slept completely. I would go stir crazy, having no where to go and no way to complete daily tasks. In any built up city you're going to have enough people working nights that it makes sense to have at least some night culture that's not centered around partying.
ehnto 7y ago
Convenience stores are prolific in Japan. I found travelling in Japan was like travelling on easy mode, because you could do almost everything last minute, including travel and accommodation. There were many days there where I woke up with no plan, half way through the day decided "Ah, this city looks nice", booked my train ticket 10 minutes before it departed and booked my hotel while in transit. Restaurants shut once you arrive? Not a worry, take your pick of a 7/11, Lawsons or Family Mart and get yourself stocked up to enjoy the city properly tomorrow. Try that in Australia and you'll find yourself in a rental car with no petrol, in the middle of no where with no food!
- moretai 7y ago
  That bit about Australia sounds like a movie waiting to happen
  - viraptor 7y ago
    That's how you get Mad Max.
gaspoweredcat 7y ago
things are very different in japan, most shops even big ones are usually open till around 9-10pm, kombinis and many Donkis (Don Quixote for those that dont know is a giant discount store which sells almost anything imaginable) are open 24/7/365 as for the number there are indeed a staggering amount, at one point i was stood somewhere in Asakusa at around 3am, not a soul on the streets other than me but a cursory glance around and i could see 4 different kombinis that were open vending machines too are everywhere but they generally just sell drinks, ive never actually seen the supposed underwear vendors of myth, around sinsekai in osaka i saw many vendors selling beers/sake/whiskey however unlike the cigarette vendors they need no age verification, they just politely ask that those under 21 dont use them. the strangest things ive seen were a vending machine for Tenga masturbators in sapporo, a dashi (fish stock in plastic bottles with a large fish crammed in there) vendor in denden town and in sinsekai i saw a gatcha machine covered in pictures of arnie in his prime which had vibrators in Arnie gatcha: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Tat22AUq7UaEK8ueA https://photos.app.goo.gl/Tat22AUq7UaEK8ueA Dashi Vending machine: https://photos.app.goo.gl/cGJ2Uko1fGMz9zUs8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/cGJ2Uko1fGMz9zUs8 Beer & sake vendors: https://photos.app.goo.gl/TMHPn2Z7326L8Rxo9 https://photos.app.goo.gl/TMHPn2Z7326L8Rxo9

geofft 7y ago

> He said that 7-Eleven had offered to pay for his remaining inventory — owners are responsible for buying their own products from the company at wholesale prices This feels like an American MLM scam, just tuned to be actually profitable for the "owner" under normal conditions and therefore sustainable. (Is this normal for legitimate American etc. franchises too, or is this specific to Japan's setup?)

teej 7y ago
I don’t know about convenience store franchises but this is the model for every major fast food franchise in the US.
- m463 7y ago
  I saw the movie "The Founder" (Michael Keaton is Ray Croc of McDonalds fame). They had trouble with francisees offering their own menus, having dirty restaurants and more... Their trick was to become a real estate company who owned the land, and then lease to the franchisee. If there was any problem, they had complete control over the franchise. That said, as a customer the whole POINT of 7-11 is to be always open. (although I wonder what stores are still open 7am-11pm instead of 24 x 7)
p1necone 7y ago
Not really the same thing, but I used to work for a small food business that sold bottled/canned drinks from a fridge via a contract with Frucor (New Zealand), and the prices they charged wholesale to this small business were often higher than what you could buy the drinks for retail at nearby supermarkets.
- retsibsi 7y ago
  Would it have been illegal to buy and resell stock from the supermarkets?
  - maccard 7y ago
    No, but it's usually against the agreement you have with the supplier, which will, like this story, probably end with a terminated agreement. Depending on your local laws, the nearby supermarket might have been selling below cost, so it might not be as huge a pricing discrepancy as you imagine.

taurath 7y ago

The other side of a culture of extreme duty is a culture of extreme shame. Its not the way for humans to live. We haven't yet seen the end of its self propagation.

peteretep 7y ago
Tying this to Japan when 7-11 runs a virtually identical model in Thailand seems weird.
- taurath 7y ago
  Thailand is a relatively poor country where labor is super easy to find.
  - austhrow743 7y ago
    Australia is one of the richest countries in the world and our 7 Elevens are 24/7. Along with many other businesses. There's nothing weird here. Have you never been to a city?

claudeganon 7y ago

Prior to World War II, Japan had massive syndicalist groups and labor unions that caused enough disruption to win universal male enfranchisement. Now, they have “black companies” working people to death with near impunity, while online mobs of right-wingers celebrate their behavior. Quite a horrifying trajectory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi

anm89 7y ago
How do you define "universal male enfranchisement“ and how do you prove that claim?
- jdale27 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Election_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Election_Law
- claudeganon 7y ago
  The standard definition? All men over age 25 were provided the legal right to vote. See the link jdale27 provided.

harrisonjackson 7y ago

This would be fine if he was running a store without the 7-11 name/brand. As a business owner, I do empathize with him. He wants to be his own boss and make his own hours, but he still needs to keep his commitment or he needs to dissolve it the right way. As a customer - this would be piss me off so much. There is a 24 hour fitness that I used to go to that closed at 10 pm. HOW IS THAT OKAY?? (this was years ago and still gets me worked up) This is just like that - he wants all the advantages of the franchise but isn't willing to uphold their brand. What's next? He doesn't like the coffee they source because he thinks it is too strong so he waters it down??

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tempsy 7y ago
Uh 7-11’s name came from the fact it was open from 7am to 11pm originally, so being open 24 hr/day is not an inherent promise of the brand.
- flexie 7y ago
  You are absolutely right (1) and I have no idea why people down vote you, even if they think its irrelevant. We, here at our office desks, are quick to demand that this store or that service is open 24/7. The guy needed a day off. Go somewhere else and get your chocolate bar. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-Eleven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-Eleven
  - harrisonjackson 7y ago
    Yes, as a customer I like the same experience when I go from one chain to another - that's the value of their brand. If he wants a day off then he should take a day off - I don't think 7-11 is setting his working hours or vacation days, but they do expect him to manage his store the way he's agreed to.
- harrisonjackson 7y ago
  > Because our customers have come to rely on our stores to meet their needs and their schedules, all 7‑Eleven stores operate 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, where allowed by law. That is straight from the FAQ on their franchise site, so they do think it is part of the brand - despite the history of their name, which I'll admit I didn't know - and thank you for the TIL moment. https://franchise.7-eleven.com/franchise/faq https://franchise.7-eleven.com/franchise/faq

austhrow743 7y ago

Shame on the New York Times for such a bs title. They care that he closed the store not that he took the day off. "Man loses franchising rights after violating core aspect of the franchise brand" doesn't have the same ring to it I guess.

fzeroracer 7y ago
Shame on you for not reading the article. The entire point was that as a small franchise owner he has to work 24/7 on the clock every day of the week due to the company off-loading all of the risk and issues onto the owner. You don't see a problem with a company mandating that their employees work every single hour of every single day?
- austhrow743 7y ago
  >The entire point was that as a small franchise owner he has to work 24/7 on the clock every day of the week That's not the entire point of being a small franchise owner at all. He is allowed to have and has employees. He is supposed to run a schedule of them to keep the business staffed around the clock. That doesn't mean he has to personally be there for every single hour that it's open! How absurd. >off-loading all of the risk and issues onto the owner. There is no offloading of all risk and issues to the business owner. All risk and issues are already inherently the owners. That's what it means to be a business owner. It's how they earn their share of the venture. If things work out you can earn a lot more money than as an employee. If things don't then you crash and burn. That's what you signed up for when you created or bought a business. >You don't see a problem with a company mandating that their employees work every single hour of every single day? Sure I do. That's in no way what happened here though. He isn't the employee of 7 Eleven. He is a business owner who has leased their brand in exchange for agreeing to certain terms. He gets more customers because people trust that his business, as a 7 Eleven, will be open all of the time and in exchange he has to be open all of the time. And again, they don't want him personally there 24/7. Just his business open.
  - michaelt 7y ago

rkachowski 7y ago

> Government figures show overwork was blamed for 246 claims related to hospitalization or death in 2018. The retail industry was one of the biggest sources, officials show. Another 568 workers took their own lives over job-related exhaustion. I find it mind blowing, and pretty damning of the culture of shame in Japan that the number of work related suicides is more than double the amount of work related hospitalizations. How doesn't this get more attention?

Markoff 7y ago

I don't get it, if he doesn't like 7-eleven franchise conditions, why he just doesn't open regular non-franchise convenience store? it's not like they have monopoly, article claims they have 40% of market, so he would join majority of other convenience store owners

thebusby 7y ago
Because 7/11 handles all the products and logistics to deliver items multiple times daily. Where would he get things to sell, and how would they get to his store?
- austhrow743 7y ago
  Wholesalers. The same way the other 60% of stores get things delivered.