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> Note that a decent fraction of the subway riders at Penn Station are going to be transfers to/from NJT/LIRR/Amtrak Definitely. But the vast majority of them

> Note that a decent fraction of the subway riders at Penn Station are going to be transfers to/from NJT/LIRR/Amtrak Definitely. But the vast majority of them are going to be NYC Metro riders, not transfers. > Remove the double-counting, and you're going to be down below Zurich's 150 million easily. Right. Lets look at the numbers. NYC population is 8.4 million Zurich population is 420,000 NYC metropolitan area population is 21 million. Zurich metropolitan area population is 1.8 million. NYC had 62 million tourists in 2018. Given these numbers I find it hard to believe that a zurich station has more traffic than penn station. Granted that we have Port Authority and Grand Central drawing traffic away from Penn Station, but even so, it's pretty hard for me to believe these traffic numbers given the population disparity.

jcranmer 7y ago
> Given these numbers I find it hard to believe that a zurich station has more traffic than penn station. This is my best guess for why people keep repeating such blatantly false claims as "Penn Station is the second busiest station in the world"--people just can't imagine that America is that bad at something. So, there are several factors going on here. First, NYC has two major rail termini (Penn and Grand Central), and a couple of other stations that's going to pull people off the train if they're not working in Downtown or Midtown Manhattan. Zurich has just the one I believe. Granted, Paris also has several termini. Another factor is the lack of intercity rail travel in the US. There's 3-4 trains an hour (each direction) on the NEC, and at best one an hour to Albany. Zurich has at least 4 lines each delivering 4 trains an hour (each direction). A larger share of the travel to Zurich is happening via rail than to NYC. The biggest factor, though, is that US commuter rail is just that bad. It is pretty much designed, in the US, to let people from the outlying suburbs drive to the rail station park and take the train to their 9-5 job downtown. If you work different hours, say 4-12, you're screwed. If you don't work downtown, you're screwed--suburb jobs are not reachable from outlying commuter rail stations. European countries run their rail stations less for 9-5 commuters and more as metro systems on larger scale. Consequently, they also see their rail systems get used for more than just 9-5 commuters. These commuters make up ~80% of the LIRR and more like ~50% for the Zurich S-Bahn. Also, more people use transit to commute: in NY metro area, only 30% use transit (of any form!) to commute, whereas it's again closer to 50% in Zurich.
- elfexec 7y ago
  > people just can't imagine that America is that bad at something. No. I'm just pointing out the absurd conclusions given the numbers. It really doesn't make statistical sense that zurich would have so much more traffic than Penn Station. Also, we are talking about NYC metro. Not the US. > First, NYC has two major rail termini (Penn and Grand Central) I know. I'm the one that pointed it out. > Zurich has just the one I believe. Even still, the population disparity is so great that it doesn't matter. > Another factor is the lack of intercity rail travel in the US. We aren't talking about the US. We are talking about NYC and its surrounding metropolitan area. > If you work different hours, say 4-12, you're screwed. NYC metro runs 24/7. And most other rail stations around the world shut down at night. > European countries run their rail stations less for 9-5 commuters and more as metro systems on larger scale. We aren't talking about countries. I'm talking about NYC. > in NY metro area, only 30% use transit (of any form!) to commute, whereas it's again closer to 50% in Zurich. Finally you get to the point. 30% of 21 million is 6.3 million. 50% of 1.8 million is .9 million. That is my point. Hell even if we boost that to 100% for zurich metropolitan, then it's 1.8 million. Which is still much smaller than 6.3 million. Even if we don't count the 62 million tourists visits to NYC ( portion of those most definitely comes through Penn Station ), I'm just not understanding that Zurich would have 50% more traffic than Penn Station. Instead of dealing with the actual stats and numbers, most of your comment was just a silly rant about the US. I get it, we don't do rail well as a nation. But we are a gigantic nation with a car/plane culture.
  - jcranmer 7y ago
    > Even if we don't count the 62 million tourists visits to NYC ( portion of those most definitely comes through Penn Station ) Amtrak moves 10 million through Penn Station a year. That's not a hard statistic to look up. Even then, I suspect the majority of those are not even tourists: maybe 1 million (equaling 2 million trips, since you would pass through Penn Station once to arrive and once to leave) out of the 60 million are going to be. It's harder for me to get the numbers for Switzerland, because the data is published in German, which I don't speak a lick of. But Switzerland is moving a far larger portion of its population by train than the US, and even if you arrive at Zurich by airport, there's a decent chance you're taking the train into the city. (If you arrive at JFK or LaGuardia, you're unlikely to make a trip to your destination in NYC via Penn Station). > 30% of 21 million is 6.3 million That's 30% of the entire metro population. First, subtract everyone who actually lives in NYC except Queens: they're not riding the LIRR or NJT into Penn Station since they have no train station to board at. If you look at the population of Long Island minus Brooklyn, that's about 5 million people, and LIRR is carrying about 70 million people per annum. At ~80% commute traffic and assuming 250 working days per annum, that's about 112,000 people commuting into Penn Station a day (each person makes two trips) out of 5 million catchment.

jcranmer 7y ago

> Given these numbers I find it hard to believe that a zurich station has more traffic than penn station. This is my best guess for why people keep repeating such blatantly false claims as "Penn Station is the second busiest station in the world"--people just can't imagine that America is that bad at something. So, there are several factors going on here. First, NYC has two major rail termini (Penn and Grand Central), and a couple of other stations that's going to pull people off the train if they're not working in Downtown or Midtown Manhattan. Zurich has just the one I believe. Granted, Paris also has several termini. Another factor is the lack of intercity rail travel in the US. There's 3-4 trains an hour (each direction) on the NEC, and at best one an hour to Albany. Zurich has at least 4 lines each delivering 4 trains an hour (each direction). A larger share of the travel to Zurich is happening via rail than to NYC. The biggest factor, though, is that US commuter rail is just that bad. It is pretty much designed, in the US, to let people from the outlying suburbs drive to the rail station park and take the train to their 9-5 job downtown. If you work different hours, say 4-12, you're screwed. If you don't work downtown, you're screwed--suburb jobs are not reachable from outlying commuter rail stations. European countries run their rail stations less for 9-5 commuters and more as metro systems on larger scale. Consequently, they also see their rail systems get used for more than just 9-5 commuters. These commuters make up ~80% of the LIRR and more like ~50% for the Zurich S-Bahn. Also, more people use transit to commute: in NY metro area, only 30% use transit (of any form!) to commute, whereas it's again closer to 50% in Zurich.

elfexec 7y ago
> people just can't imagine that America is that bad at something. No. I'm just pointing out the absurd conclusions given the numbers. It really doesn't make statistical sense that zurich would have so much more traffic than Penn Station. Also, we are talking about NYC metro. Not the US. > First, NYC has two major rail termini (Penn and Grand Central) I know. I'm the one that pointed it out. > Zurich has just the one I believe. Even still, the population disparity is so great that it doesn't matter. > Another factor is the lack of intercity rail travel in the US. We aren't talking about the US. We are talking about NYC and its surrounding metropolitan area. > If you work different hours, say 4-12, you're screwed. NYC metro runs 24/7. And most other rail stations around the world shut down at night. > European countries run their rail stations less for 9-5 commuters and more as metro systems on larger scale. We aren't talking about countries. I'm talking about NYC. > in NY metro area, only 30% use transit (of any form!) to commute, whereas it's again closer to 50% in Zurich. Finally you get to the point. 30% of 21 million is 6.3 million. 50% of 1.8 million is .9 million. That is my point. Hell even if we boost that to 100% for zurich metropolitan, then it's 1.8 million. Which is still much smaller than 6.3 million. Even if we don't count the 62 million tourists visits to NYC ( portion of those most definitely comes through Penn Station ), I'm just not understanding that Zurich would have 50% more traffic than Penn Station. Instead of dealing with the actual stats and numbers, most of your comment was just a silly rant about the US. I get it, we don't do rail well as a nation. But we are a gigantic nation with a car/plane culture.
- jcranmer 7y ago
  > Even if we don't count the 62 million tourists visits to NYC ( portion of those most definitely comes through Penn Station ) Amtrak moves 10 million through Penn Station a year. That's not a hard statistic to look up. Even then, I suspect the majority of those are not even tourists: maybe 1 million (equaling 2 million trips, since you would pass through Penn Station once to arrive and once to leave) out of the 60 million are going to be. It's harder for me to get the numbers for Switzerland, because the data is published in German, which I don't speak a lick of. But Switzerland is moving a far larger portion of its population by train than the US, and even if you arrive at Zurich by airport, there's a decent chance you're taking the train into the city. (If you arrive at JFK or LaGuardia, you're unlikely to make a trip to your destination in NYC via Penn Station). > 30% of 21 million is 6.3 million That's 30% of the entire metro population. First, subtract everyone who actually lives in NYC except Queens: they're not riding the LIRR or NJT into Penn Station since they have no train station to board at. If you look at the population of Long Island minus Brooklyn, that's about 5 million people, and LIRR is carrying about 70 million people per annum. At ~80% commute traffic and assuming 250 working days per annum, that's about 112,000 people commuting into Penn Station a day (each person makes two trips) out of 5 million catchment.