5 ms·

When I was a nerdy teenager I imagined that by a date like 2020 humankind would have cured cancer, built a base on the Moon or Mars, eradicated infectious disea

by avz 7y ago

When I was a nerdy teenager I imagined that by a date like 2020 humankind would have cured cancer, built a base on the Moon or Mars, eradicated infectious diseases and taken control over climate and weather. It turns out that in the real world progress is a lot slower than in the imagination of a sci-fi-imbued teenager. It turns out that solving problems takes work. A lot of it. If people work less, especially if engineers, scientists, doctors etc work less, then technological progress will be taking place slower than it is currently. The disappointment of my teenage self with 2030 will then be even greater than that with 2020. I'm genuinely puzzled by the general anti-work sentiment I perceive on HN (maybe my perception is simply incorrect). I'd expect that most folks here work as engineers or in a similar field that rewards with interesting and meaningful problems and that a substantial fraction had once been sci-fi-imbued teenagers like myself and possibly feel the same disappointment with the pace of technological progress. I'm very worried that the anti-work movement is (inadvertently?) pushing on the breaks of technological progress :-(

Spooky23 7y ago
In doubt it. Most jobs are operations or a function that is mostly hours applied to complete tasks, not product development. Reducing working hours would likely improve output and employment.
frequentnapper 7y ago
on the other hand, it gives motivated people enough free time to tackle difficult problems that they're interested in.
_vertigo 7y ago
Some people believe that we'd be more efficient if we work 30 hours a week instead of 40+.
- larnmar 7y ago
  If this were really true, you’d expect to see most people with full freedom to set their own hours gravitate towards that 30-hour mark. Professors working 30-hour weeks would write more papers than their harder-working colleagues. Business owners would show up for 30 hours a week and go home. Fruit pickers, paid by the bucket, would pick more fruit in 30 hours than their colleagues could pick in 50. Professional athletes who spent less time training would beat their harder-working competitors.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2737742 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2737742
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    It's an idea that's only recently begun gathering research: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/294545 https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/294545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13318990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13318990 https://www.brinknews.com/working-fewer-hours-makes-you-more-efficient-heres-the-proof/ https://www.brinknews.com/working-fewer-hours-makes-you-more...
  - bsder 7y ago
    > Professors working 30-hour weeks This is gated by the fact that teaching even a single class well is almost a 40-hour a week job by itself.
- Proven 7y ago
  Those people could work 30 hour weeks. It's not illegal. For comparison socialists and statists want to make it illegal or very hard to work over 30 hours. That's very different.
kerpele 7y ago
Most people probably aren’t willing to sacrifice themselves for the possible slight advancement of mankind. Especially laborers who are the ones most affected by work time limits.
Apocryphon 7y ago
Most people in Silicon Valley working long hours are not toiling for missions remotely related to those utopian visions.
- hackeraccount 7y ago
  Maybe. I'd suggest that it can difficult to tell exactly what advancement brings us closer to "Utopia." Everyone easily accpets the idea that basic research can have long term effects in unpredictable ways. I'd suggest that some trivial commercial advancements can do the same thing.
decebalus1 7y ago
Do you think working more would get us to that place? Purely from an hourly perspective, we're already working 'more'. Way more than the technological progress would allow us to focus on the problems that you mentioned. The problem IMO is who benefits from the extra value produced by that work. Unfortunately it's not society. The anti-work movement is not 'anti-work' in general. It's anti-meaningless degrading work which allows me to make ends meet while enabling a small number of people to become unbelievably rich. This book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs outlines some of the issues you mentioned. Technological advancement allowed for a lot of jobs to disappear which should theoretically allow us to have more leisure time or time invested in other directions. However, we need to keep 'the machine' going, so..
findjashua 7y ago
but what percentage of the workforce is actually working in jobs related to solving these problems? i'd argue that the "anti-work" sentiment here is more to do with lack of fulfillment due to an epidemic of bullshit jobs, rather than not wanting to work. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bullshit_Jobs https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bullshit_Jobs
grawprog 7y ago
Well up until recently I spent 9-10 hours a day programming machines that turned mountains into countertops and fireplace and such for rich people. Every day I kind of made the world worse to make some rich people happy. I mean there was one day we took a slab of 10 million year old fossils cut from the bottom of the ocean and made it into a counter. This arguably does not improve the world. 4 day weeks or 6 hour days would have been pretty awesome, I could have likely been more productive in life things. My new job is also nothing world changing, though probably marginally more beneficial to more people and less environmentally damaging, but the lack of 6, nine hour day weeks makes it more appealing in many ways. Though, I'm kind of torn, because I find the actual work less fulfilling and enjoyable, but having time is nice.
- internet_user 7y ago
  do you think its possible to find a job so full-filling it does not feel like a job?
- forgotmypw1 7y ago
  in my years of money work, i contributed to pollution, sugar addiction, advertising, the financial crisis, general environmental destruction, etc. i would have done more good sitting on my hands.
fantasicferret 7y ago
Well, looks like you don't really understand. Studies are suggesting people are more and as productive working less hours. So, in order to get to this awesome 2030 future. We need to be more efficient. It's not 'anti-work' it's anti-busy work. Sitting down in meeting that are 1+ hours and sending out redundant emails aren't productive. They're just 'boomer'ish.
- xupybd 7y ago
  Using the term boomer'ish may not be the most productive approach. Yeah times are changing but why use the slur 'boomer'. There is a lot to be gained by following the wisdom of the previous generation. They plowed the way for us. Our societies stand on the shoulders of giants, we'd do well to remember that includes the people immediately before us and will one day include us. Yes they made mistakes, as will our generation. But they also made progress, progress we should be grateful for.
cmdshiftf4 7y ago
>possibly feel the same disappointment with the pace of technological progress. If anything, people should be disappointed at the technological progress that has received priority over others. Personally I'm aghast at the pace of "technological progress" due to the direction it is going in.
forgotmypw1 7y ago
what have you done to move progress along? i'd bet dollars to donuts you have been too busy earning money doing useless shit like advertising, finance, or entertainment, a net negative for everyone, and jerking off to mainstream media on your own time. no offense. i did it too for about 15 years.

by avz 7y ago

Spooky23 7y ago

In doubt it. Most jobs are operations or a function that is mostly hours applied to complete tasks, not product development. Reducing working hours would likely improve output and employment.

frequentnapper 7y ago

on the other hand, it gives motivated people enough free time to tackle difficult problems that they're interested in.

_vertigo 7y ago

Some people believe that we'd be more efficient if we work 30 hours a week instead of 40+.

larnmar 7y ago
If this were really true, you’d expect to see most people with full freedom to set their own hours gravitate towards that 30-hour mark. Professors working 30-hour weeks would write more papers than their harder-working colleagues. Business owners would show up for 30 hours a week and go home. Fruit pickers, paid by the bucket, would pick more fruit in 30 hours than their colleagues could pick in 50. Professional athletes who spent less time training would beat their harder-working competitors.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2737742 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2737742
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  It's an idea that's only recently begun gathering research: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/294545 https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/294545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13318990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13318990 https://www.brinknews.com/working-fewer-hours-makes-you-more-efficient-heres-the-proof/ https://www.brinknews.com/working-fewer-hours-makes-you-more...
- bsder 7y ago
  > Professors working 30-hour weeks This is gated by the fact that teaching even a single class well is almost a 40-hour a week job by itself.
Proven 7y ago
Those people could work 30 hour weeks. It's not illegal. For comparison socialists and statists want to make it illegal or very hard to work over 30 hours. That's very different.

kerpele 7y ago

Most people probably aren’t willing to sacrifice themselves for the possible slight advancement of mankind. Especially laborers who are the ones most affected by work time limits.

Apocryphon 7y ago

Most people in Silicon Valley working long hours are not toiling for missions remotely related to those utopian visions.

hackeraccount 7y ago
Maybe. I'd suggest that it can difficult to tell exactly what advancement brings us closer to "Utopia." Everyone easily accpets the idea that basic research can have long term effects in unpredictable ways. I'd suggest that some trivial commercial advancements can do the same thing.

decebalus1 7y ago

Do you think working more would get us to that place? Purely from an hourly perspective, we're already working 'more'. Way more than the technological progress would allow us to focus on the problems that you mentioned. The problem IMO is who benefits from the extra value produced by that work. Unfortunately it's not society. The anti-work movement is not 'anti-work' in general. It's anti-meaningless degrading work which allows me to make ends meet while enabling a small number of people to become unbelievably rich. This book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs outlines some of the issues you mentioned. Technological advancement allowed for a lot of jobs to disappear which should theoretically allow us to have more leisure time or time invested in other directions. However, we need to keep 'the machine' going, so..

findjashua 7y ago

but what percentage of the workforce is actually working in jobs related to solving these problems? i'd argue that the "anti-work" sentiment here is more to do with lack of fulfillment due to an epidemic of bullshit jobs, rather than not wanting to work. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bullshit_Jobs https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bullshit_Jobs

grawprog 7y ago

Well up until recently I spent 9-10 hours a day programming machines that turned mountains into countertops and fireplace and such for rich people. Every day I kind of made the world worse to make some rich people happy. I mean there was one day we took a slab of 10 million year old fossils cut from the bottom of the ocean and made it into a counter. This arguably does not improve the world. 4 day weeks or 6 hour days would have been pretty awesome, I could have likely been more productive in life things. My new job is also nothing world changing, though probably marginally more beneficial to more people and less environmentally damaging, but the lack of 6, nine hour day weeks makes it more appealing in many ways. Though, I'm kind of torn, because I find the actual work less fulfilling and enjoyable, but having time is nice.

internet_user 7y ago
do you think its possible to find a job so full-filling it does not feel like a job?
forgotmypw1 7y ago
in my years of money work, i contributed to pollution, sugar addiction, advertising, the financial crisis, general environmental destruction, etc. i would have done more good sitting on my hands.

fantasicferret 7y ago

Well, looks like you don't really understand. Studies are suggesting people are more and as productive working less hours. So, in order to get to this awesome 2030 future. We need to be more efficient. It's not 'anti-work' it's anti-busy work. Sitting down in meeting that are 1+ hours and sending out redundant emails aren't productive. They're just 'boomer'ish.

xupybd 7y ago
Using the term boomer'ish may not be the most productive approach. Yeah times are changing but why use the slur 'boomer'. There is a lot to be gained by following the wisdom of the previous generation. They plowed the way for us. Our societies stand on the shoulders of giants, we'd do well to remember that includes the people immediately before us and will one day include us. Yes they made mistakes, as will our generation. But they also made progress, progress we should be grateful for.

cmdshiftf4 7y ago

>possibly feel the same disappointment with the pace of technological progress. If anything, people should be disappointed at the technological progress that has received priority over others. Personally I'm aghast at the pace of "technological progress" due to the direction it is going in.

forgotmypw1 7y ago

what have you done to move progress along? i'd bet dollars to donuts you have been too busy earning money doing useless shit like advertising, finance, or entertainment, a net negative for everyone, and jerking off to mainstream media on your own time. no offense. i did it too for about 15 years.