11 ms·

Land consolidation can be done through communes/co-ops, in which case the benefits of increased productivity are fairly distributed, or through private corporat

Land consolidation can be done through communes/co-ops, in which case the benefits of increased productivity are fairly distributed, or through private corporations, in which case profits are privatised and concentrated on a small owner elite class.

jessant 7y ago
Nothing stopping people from doing that.
- ahoy 7y ago
  There is an enormous body of law in the US that incentivizes a top-down corporate business structure and disincentives a co-op business structure.
  - jessant 7y ago
    I think human nature incentivizes top-down corporate business structures and disincentivizes co-op businesss structures.
    - apt-get 7y ago
      Which is why 75% of France's farmers belong to an agricultural cooperative?
      - cpach 7y ago
        Are those profitable though? Farming is heavily subsidized by the EU.
        Apocryphon 7y ago
        And American agriculture is likewise heavily subsidized by the federal government.
        ahoy 7y ago
        US agriculture is also heavily subsidized
        jelliclesfarm 7y ago
        Only commodity crops and those listed on Wall Street/stock exchange. Not the food and vegetables and fruits we consume. Hogs and corn and sugar beets and canola and soy are subsidized.
        dredmorbius 7y ago
        Farming is heavily subsidised throughout the industrialised world.
        chad_oliver 7y ago
        Farming in New Zealand is not subsidized, and I believe the same is true of Australia. It's possible to compete on the open market and succeed.
        jelliclesfarm 7y ago
        NZ used to have subsidies but they got rid of it. Good for them. Fonterra is their big co-op. But with Chinese investment/ownership, most of it is going towards milk powder for export. They posted a loss for the first time last year. Canada has subsidies but different from American. They use a system called Supply Management. They make smaller family farms work better and will survive unlike American dairy. We have more CAFOs and factory farms that are not ecologically and environmentally sustainable in the long run. It’s a mess.
      - seanalltogether 7y ago
        I can't speak for France specifically but if it's anything like the UK and Ireland then farming families are dis-incentivized to sell land because its costs nothing to hold, and always increases in value. As a farmer you might not even own the land you work on but rent it for the season, and large corporations don't work well with that kind of uncertainty.
    - chottocharaii 7y ago
      Perhaps, but the body of law point means we’ll never find out if you’re right or not.
    - NeoBasilisk 7y ago
      I would be very careful in trying to attribute something as complex as corporate structures to human nature. We have seen massive changes in all parts of society throughout the last 10k years. I don't think the human genome has changed so rapidly as to cycle through slavery, feudalism, mercantilism, capitalism, etc.
      - andrepd 7y ago
        It's always such a convenient and supremely lazy explanation. It's human nature for blacks to be servile. It's human nature for peasants to be ruled by the lord of the manor. And so on.
    - hinkley 7y ago
      > Nothing stopping people from doing that. So... human nature. Human nature is stopping people from doing that.
  - giggles_giggles 7y ago
    This is quite a claim, but it's too vague for me to research independently. Where would I even start in exploring the "enormous body of law" that "incentivizes a top-down corporate business structure?" I am not asking rhetorically -- this is news to me and I'd like to know the details. Of course, co-ops aren't common in the US, but they do exist (like REI) so I'm just curious about the details of this criticism of the legal landscape in the US but without further information am unable to research the claim.
    - emiliobumachar 7y ago
      Arguably that's exactly the problem. There's so much law applying to farming that you'd need a sizable legal department to know it all. That favors centralization.
      - Nasrudith 7y ago
        That applies to every field as corner cases are covered. Restricting it to what is actually relevant to the domain is sufficent to "consultation with relevant country lawyer" as opposed to entire law firms.
- windexh8er 7y ago
  There are many corporate things that "stop people from doing that". Seed monopolies [0]. Costco is undercutting chicken production just to maintain a $4.99 offering to their customers [1]. Mega farms have put over 2700 family farms out of business in Wisconsin [2]. CAFOs create pollution equivalent to 168 million people in the state of Iowa with only a total population of 3.2 million people [3]. All of this manure gets dumped back into the soil for monoculture corn farming which is grown to feed livestock which is also significantly inefficient and drains local resources on clean and fresh water supplies and significantly pollutes downstream via runoff into large rivers [4]. The main polluters are, again, these large scale farms concentrating operations for efficiencies to fulfill the ever expanding lineup of highly processed foods the majority of western culture now eats on a daily basis. Money stops local farming. These mega farms are not in the business to make a great product, they're in the business to make a great profit - at the expense of their customers, no different than the tobacco manufacturers agenda. Between lobbyism, patents, mergers and grants by states desperate for revenue the concentration of control in farming has become very bleak in a short decade. [0] https://philhoward.net/2018/12/31/global-seed-industry-changes-since-2013/ https://philhoward.net/2018/12/31/global-seed-industry-chang... [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/business/costco-5-dollar-chicken/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/business/costco-5-dollar-chic... [2] https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/industrial-dairy-farming-taking-over-wisconsin-crowding-out-family-operations-and-raising https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/industrial-dairy-farmin... [3] https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/agriculture/2019/06/10/iowa-leads-nation-poop-manure-university-iowa-livestock-clean-water-pollution-shades-brown-waste/1379973001/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/agriculture/20... [4] https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/center-biological-diversity-endorses-impossible-beyond-burgers-2019-12-10-2019-12-11/ https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/center...
earlINmeyerkeg 7y ago
There are dairy co-ops where I live that do this sort of thing. That's why they're so huge. However the small ma and pop ones that have local well known businesses charge an arm and a leg for half a gallon of milk. Yeah sorry, I'll pay half that cost for a gallon at walmart, thanks.
- 8note 7y ago
  how much of that is government subsidies?
- quacked 7y ago
  Your choice unfortunately affects the greater world. Which would you rather have- a locally-produced society that's expensive to live in, or a Walmart society that's convenient to live in?
  - iso1210 7y ago
    It makes sense for the local optimisation of the individual to go for the walmart society - after all their single choice won't make a difference to anything other than their bottom line It makes sense for people as a whole to optimise as a society and have the locally produced society That's where we can choose an economic system that ensures that we optimise in general rather than individually, so we avoid the prisoner's dilemma type problems.
    - quacked 7y ago
      I've come to the same conclusion. Never before in history have people truly optimize while thinking of themselves as a whole- the second something more convenient was offered, they took it immediately. I think that we're at a place in human history where we desperately need every person to step back from convenience in order to optimize for society.
      - 1MoreThing 7y ago
        This is the point of government and regulation. We're not going to get far relying on willpower and rational thought in individual decision-making. So we use government as tool to help use out. I can't stop myself from eating an entire of package of Oreos if they're in the kitchen. So I don't buy them. I don't give myself the choice, because I know I'll make a bad one. Instead, I choose to restrict my choice (and the choice of the rest of my household) for our overall well-being. This feels pretty bad if you're a 10-year-old and just want some freaking cookies. Sorry you weren't able to make your own choice there. Our overall well-being took priority over your individual liberties. I get why that is unacceptable to some folks, but there has to be some balance, and sometimes that means restricting personal liberties in order to maintain the health of the overall system and community.

jessant 7y ago

Nothing stopping people from doing that.

ahoy 7y ago
There is an enormous body of law in the US that incentivizes a top-down corporate business structure and disincentives a co-op business structure.
- jessant 7y ago
  I think human nature incentivizes top-down corporate business structures and disincentivizes co-op businesss structures.
  - apt-get 7y ago
    Which is why 75% of France's farmers belong to an agricultural cooperative?
    - cpach 7y ago
      Are those profitable though? Farming is heavily subsidized by the EU.
      - Apocryphon 7y ago
        And American agriculture is likewise heavily subsidized by the federal government.
      - ahoy 7y ago
        US agriculture is also heavily subsidized
        jelliclesfarm 7y ago
        Only commodity crops and those listed on Wall Street/stock exchange. Not the food and vegetables and fruits we consume. Hogs and corn and sugar beets and canola and soy are subsidized.
      - dredmorbius 7y ago
        Farming is heavily subsidised throughout the industrialised world.
        chad_oliver 7y ago
        Farming in New Zealand is not subsidized, and I believe the same is true of Australia. It's possible to compete on the open market and succeed.
        jelliclesfarm 7y ago
        NZ used to have subsidies but they got rid of it. Good for them. Fonterra is their big co-op. But with Chinese investment/ownership, most of it is going towards milk powder for export. They posted a loss for the first time last year. Canada has subsidies but different from American. They use a system called Supply Management. They make smaller family farms work better and will survive unlike American dairy. We have more CAFOs and factory farms that are not ecologically and environmentally sustainable in the long run. It’s a mess.
    - seanalltogether 7y ago
      I can't speak for France specifically but if it's anything like the UK and Ireland then farming families are dis-incentivized to sell land because its costs nothing to hold, and always increases in value. As a farmer you might not even own the land you work on but rent it for the season, and large corporations don't work well with that kind of uncertainty.
  - chottocharaii 7y ago
    Perhaps, but the body of law point means we’ll never find out if you’re right or not.
  - NeoBasilisk 7y ago
    I would be very careful in trying to attribute something as complex as corporate structures to human nature. We have seen massive changes in all parts of society throughout the last 10k years. I don't think the human genome has changed so rapidly as to cycle through slavery, feudalism, mercantilism, capitalism, etc.
    - andrepd 7y ago
      It's always such a convenient and supremely lazy explanation. It's human nature for blacks to be servile. It's human nature for peasants to be ruled by the lord of the manor. And so on.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    > Nothing stopping people from doing that. So... human nature. Human nature is stopping people from doing that.
- giggles_giggles 7y ago
  This is quite a claim, but it's too vague for me to research independently. Where would I even start in exploring the "enormous body of law" that "incentivizes a top-down corporate business structure?" I am not asking rhetorically -- this is news to me and I'd like to know the details. Of course, co-ops aren't common in the US, but they do exist (like REI) so I'm just curious about the details of this criticism of the legal landscape in the US but without further information am unable to research the claim.
  - emiliobumachar 7y ago
    Arguably that's exactly the problem. There's so much law applying to farming that you'd need a sizable legal department to know it all. That favors centralization.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      That applies to every field as corner cases are covered. Restricting it to what is actually relevant to the domain is sufficent to "consultation with relevant country lawyer" as opposed to entire law firms.
windexh8er 7y ago
There are many corporate things that "stop people from doing that". Seed monopolies [0]. Costco is undercutting chicken production just to maintain a $4.99 offering to their customers [1]. Mega farms have put over 2700 family farms out of business in Wisconsin [2]. CAFOs create pollution equivalent to 168 million people in the state of Iowa with only a total population of 3.2 million people [3]. All of this manure gets dumped back into the soil for monoculture corn farming which is grown to feed livestock which is also significantly inefficient and drains local resources on clean and fresh water supplies and significantly pollutes downstream via runoff into large rivers [4]. The main polluters are, again, these large scale farms concentrating operations for efficiencies to fulfill the ever expanding lineup of highly processed foods the majority of western culture now eats on a daily basis. Money stops local farming. These mega farms are not in the business to make a great product, they're in the business to make a great profit - at the expense of their customers, no different than the tobacco manufacturers agenda. Between lobbyism, patents, mergers and grants by states desperate for revenue the concentration of control in farming has become very bleak in a short decade. [0] https://philhoward.net/2018/12/31/global-seed-industry-changes-since-2013/ https://philhoward.net/2018/12/31/global-seed-industry-chang... [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/business/costco-5-dollar-chicken/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/business/costco-5-dollar-chic... [2] https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/industrial-dairy-farming-taking-over-wisconsin-crowding-out-family-operations-and-raising https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/industrial-dairy-farmin... [3] https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/agriculture/2019/06/10/iowa-leads-nation-poop-manure-university-iowa-livestock-clean-water-pollution-shades-brown-waste/1379973001/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/agriculture/20... [4] https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/center-biological-diversity-endorses-impossible-beyond-burgers-2019-12-10-2019-12-11/ https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/center...

earlINmeyerkeg 7y ago

There are dairy co-ops where I live that do this sort of thing. That's why they're so huge. However the small ma and pop ones that have local well known businesses charge an arm and a leg for half a gallon of milk. Yeah sorry, I'll pay half that cost for a gallon at walmart, thanks.

8note 7y ago
how much of that is government subsidies?
quacked 7y ago
Your choice unfortunately affects the greater world. Which would you rather have- a locally-produced society that's expensive to live in, or a Walmart society that's convenient to live in?
- iso1210 7y ago
  It makes sense for the local optimisation of the individual to go for the walmart society - after all their single choice won't make a difference to anything other than their bottom line It makes sense for people as a whole to optimise as a society and have the locally produced society That's where we can choose an economic system that ensures that we optimise in general rather than individually, so we avoid the prisoner's dilemma type problems.
  - quacked 7y ago
    I've come to the same conclusion. Never before in history have people truly optimize while thinking of themselves as a whole- the second something more convenient was offered, they took it immediately. I think that we're at a place in human history where we desperately need every person to step back from convenience in order to optimize for society.
    - 1MoreThing 7y ago
      This is the point of government and regulation. We're not going to get far relying on willpower and rational thought in individual decision-making. So we use government as tool to help use out. I can't stop myself from eating an entire of package of Oreos if they're in the kitchen. So I don't buy them. I don't give myself the choice, because I know I'll make a bad one. Instead, I choose to restrict my choice (and the choice of the rest of my household) for our overall well-being. This feels pretty bad if you're a 10-year-old and just want some freaking cookies. Sorry you weren't able to make your own choice there. Our overall well-being took priority over your individual liberties. I get why that is unacceptable to some folks, but there has to be some balance, and sometimes that means restricting personal liberties in order to maintain the health of the overall system and community.