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The author mentions parking tickets as a possible future automatic fine that could be unreliable. Red light cameras were introduced in Ontario in 1998, which au

The author mentions parking tickets as a possible future automatic fine that could be unreliable. Red light cameras were introduced in Ontario in 1998, which automatically issue fines to the vehicle owner, and automatic speed enforcement is being rolled out now. I guess the difference is that it improves road safety, which library fines don't, and that you can contest the ticket with a human in traffic court.

nogabebop23 7y ago
>> I guess the difference is that it improves road safety Exactly - just like when I want to change the way my kids are acting: I pick a random occurrence of a specific behaviour, punish them well after the fact and they inevitably draw the correct cause => effect linkage and never repeat the targeted behaviour again. </s>
- tom_ 7y ago
  While drivers are in many respects indistinguishable from children, they are in fact adults, and can typically figure things out from the explanation that accompanies the punishment.
Rebelgecko 7y ago
>I guess the difference is that it improves road safety I don't think this is necessarily true for red light cameras. Many studies have shown that they lead to more fatalities and more collisions (fewer people getting T-boned when they run red lights, offset by more people getting rear ended when they slam on the brakes so they don't get a ticket). Other studies have also found that cameras reduce collisions and deaths, so I think to some extent it's still an open question and the answer may vary in different locations.
Maxious 7y ago
25 years later, automated parking tickets via number plate recognition vans are here: > One of the more amusing reasons for Smart Parking’s loss was flagged in its interim numbers in February when the company told investors its cash cow of issuing parking fines was being bled by “increased driver compliance resulting in fewer PBNs [parking breach notifications] being issued”. https://www.itnews.com.au/news/automated-and-iot-parking-fines-a-loss-as-smart-parking-drives-into-the-red-530158 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/automated-and-iot-parking-fin...
jonny_eh 7y ago
> automatic speed enforcement is being rolled out now It was already rolled out in the 90s, then removed by a different government in the 2000s. It was called "Photo-radar". > Photo radar was introduced to the province’s major highways in the early 1990s by Bob Rae’s NDP government, but the controversial project was scrapped by Mike Harris’ Progressive Conservatives. https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/photo-radar-makes-comeback-thi https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/photo-radar-makes-com...
- jacobush 7y ago
  And it ran on film
cnst 7y ago
> I guess the difference is that it improves road safety, This is false; the road cameras don't actually improve the road safety — they highly increase rear-end collisions. They're mostly there for revenue, and some jurisdictions don't make them legal; e.g., in California, tickets issued by speed-traffic cameras will be dismissed by any judge.
- waste_monk 7y ago
  >This is false; the road cameras don't actually improve the road safety — they highly increase rear-end collisions. Driving dangerously and then slamming on the brakes to avoid getting caught by the camera increases rear-end collisions. If you drive sensibly to begin with it isn't an issue. If you are driving sensibly then it's the other drivers fault for not allowing enough stopping distance. In neither case are the cameras at fault. I am so sick of this pity seeking everyone's-at-fault-but-me attitude. If you are driving the vehicle then you are solely responsible for obeying the road rules.
  - mauvehaus 7y ago
    I think it's pretty well established at this point that at least some of the cities that have installed red light cameras have also shortened yellow lights, leading to exactly the behavior described by the GP and the increase in rear-end collisions. Citations: https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-yellow-light-timing-met-20141223-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-yellow-ligh... I have no reason to consider the Tribune a biased source. https://nypost.com/2012/10/08/citys-gotcha-traffic-cameras-use-short-yellow-lights-to-increase-ticket-revenue-study/ https://nypost.com/2012/10/08/citys-gotcha-traffic-cameras-u... AFAIK, the NY Post doesn't exactly have the reputation of the Times, but I don't have any reason to consider it biased in this matter either. https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/ https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-sho... I would tend to assume that "The National Motorists Association" has some pro-car and anti-enforcement bias. Nonetheless, the links are to a third-party site that links directly to local news sources. Feel free to evaluate them as you see fit. I find it hard to imagine that there's a traffic-engineering reason to shorten yellow lights at intersections with red light cameras, and find the GP's claim that [in many cases] they're an instance of policing for revenue to be credible.

nogabebop23 7y ago

>> I guess the difference is that it improves road safety Exactly - just like when I want to change the way my kids are acting: I pick a random occurrence of a specific behaviour, punish them well after the fact and they inevitably draw the correct cause => effect linkage and never repeat the targeted behaviour again. </s>

tom_ 7y ago
While drivers are in many respects indistinguishable from children, they are in fact adults, and can typically figure things out from the explanation that accompanies the punishment.

Rebelgecko 7y ago

>I guess the difference is that it improves road safety I don't think this is necessarily true for red light cameras. Many studies have shown that they lead to more fatalities and more collisions (fewer people getting T-boned when they run red lights, offset by more people getting rear ended when they slam on the brakes so they don't get a ticket). Other studies have also found that cameras reduce collisions and deaths, so I think to some extent it's still an open question and the answer may vary in different locations.

Maxious 7y ago

25 years later, automated parking tickets via number plate recognition vans are here: > One of the more amusing reasons for Smart Parking’s loss was flagged in its interim numbers in February when the company told investors its cash cow of issuing parking fines was being bled by “increased driver compliance resulting in fewer PBNs [parking breach notifications] being issued”. https://www.itnews.com.au/news/automated-and-iot-parking-fines-a-loss-as-smart-parking-drives-into-the-red-530158 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/automated-and-iot-parking-fin...

jonny_eh 7y ago

> automatic speed enforcement is being rolled out now It was already rolled out in the 90s, then removed by a different government in the 2000s. It was called "Photo-radar". > Photo radar was introduced to the province’s major highways in the early 1990s by Bob Rae’s NDP government, but the controversial project was scrapped by Mike Harris’ Progressive Conservatives. https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/photo-radar-makes-comeback-thi https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/photo-radar-makes-com...

jacobush 7y ago
And it ran on film

cnst 7y ago

> I guess the difference is that it improves road safety, This is false; the road cameras don't actually improve the road safety — they highly increase rear-end collisions. They're mostly there for revenue, and some jurisdictions don't make them legal; e.g., in California, tickets issued by speed-traffic cameras will be dismissed by any judge.

waste_monk 7y ago
>This is false; the road cameras don't actually improve the road safety — they highly increase rear-end collisions. Driving dangerously and then slamming on the brakes to avoid getting caught by the camera increases rear-end collisions. If you drive sensibly to begin with it isn't an issue. If you are driving sensibly then it's the other drivers fault for not allowing enough stopping distance. In neither case are the cameras at fault. I am so sick of this pity seeking everyone's-at-fault-but-me attitude. If you are driving the vehicle then you are solely responsible for obeying the road rules.
- mauvehaus 7y ago
  I think it's pretty well established at this point that at least some of the cities that have installed red light cameras have also shortened yellow lights, leading to exactly the behavior described by the GP and the increase in rear-end collisions. Citations: https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-yellow-light-timing-met-20141223-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-yellow-ligh... I have no reason to consider the Tribune a biased source. https://nypost.com/2012/10/08/citys-gotcha-traffic-cameras-use-short-yellow-lights-to-increase-ticket-revenue-study/ https://nypost.com/2012/10/08/citys-gotcha-traffic-cameras-u... AFAIK, the NY Post doesn't exactly have the reputation of the Times, but I don't have any reason to consider it biased in this matter either. https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/ https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-sho... I would tend to assume that "The National Motorists Association" has some pro-car and anti-enforcement bias. Nonetheless, the links are to a third-party site that links directly to local news sources. Feel free to evaluate them as you see fit. I find it hard to imagine that there's a traffic-engineering reason to shorten yellow lights at intersections with red light cameras, and find the GP's claim that [in many cases] they're an instance of policing for revenue to be credible.