4 ms·

Setting aside all of the anecdotes for and against bootcamps in this thread and the one on Twitter, consider this: compared to the rest of the job market, softw

by _bxg1 7y ago

Setting aside all of the anecdotes for and against bootcamps in this thread and the one on Twitter, consider this: compared to the rest of the job market, software engineering in 2020 is a ridiculous gold rush, no matter which way you slice it. And bootcamps are a vague-but-lucrative new business sector that capitalizes on this reality with hardly any regulation or accreditation system. Historically, whenever there's been a lucrative new business opportunity with little oversight it's almost guaranteed to be rife with corruption and scams. That's not to say that legit bootcamps don't exist - my own partner had a successful experience with one - but the marketplace is a minefield of potentially life-ruining opportunities, and the only way to tell good from bad is through anecdotes and he-said-she-said. That's a big problem.

carapace 7y ago
Yeah, a gold rush, and old SF hands know the way to cash in: stay in town, sell shovels and Levi's.
- vsareto 7y ago
  Old SF hands might be cashing in, but many people are getting >$150k-$250k jobs out of it. The shovel analogy is stretched thin. It's more like selling gold shovels at this point: both sides get rich, but one a little more than the other.
  - carapace 7y ago
    Look at the risks.
tempsy 7y ago
I mean the ISA-style bootcamps don't make any money unless you get a real SWE job (being a TA doesn't trigger the ISA) and there are good ones out there.
- sandofsky 7y ago
  They also make money by reselling ISAs to hedge funds. This could stop happening in a few years if the ISAs don’t pan out, and the hedge funds stop buying them. But right now the school is protected regardless of outcome. The other issue is that bootcamps can collect that money even if they provide no value. Say a student gets nothing out of the bootcamp, and spends the next three years on rigorous self-study. The only upside for students is if the bootcamp fails, and they totally give up on a career in programming. If you have an ISA hanging over your head that might cost you upwards of $30k, I’d say it’s more likely you’ll give up than if you blew $7k up-front.
  - tempsy 7y ago
    i've not heard that about reselling ISAs. what's the source? which camps do that? the "other issue" is not true of the ones I've seen. most ISAs have an expiration date far shorter than 3 years. the ones in SF I've seen are 1 year. the "catch" that most people don't talk about with ISAs is that you have to actively job hunt and the school with hold you accountable for that e.g. submitting an minimum number of applications a week, going to networking events, reaching out to recruiters, etc., and if you fail to meet a minimum weekly threshold then you could trigger repayment. that is a big motivation to keep trying to get that first job.
    - sandofsky 7y ago
      https://www.wired.com/story/how-we-learn-lambda-income-sharing-agreements/ https://www.wired.com/story/how-we-learn-lambda-income-shari... "In the meantime, Lambda shifts the equation: For about half of the ISAs, the company sells the rights to a portion of its returns to investors; in return, it gets cash up front." You can even see a "Sample Offering" for Lambda School on Edly, a marketplace for reselling ISAs: https://edly.info/investors/ https://edly.info/investors/
      - tempsy 7y ago
        Ok got it - but what's the issue? This is similar to invoice financing, which is a pretty common practice. The only way I see this impacting student outcome is if the school loses motivation to help students post-graduation, but the discount for selling these ISAs must be very high.
sjc27 7y ago
FWIW I went through one of the more reputable well-known in person bootcamps this past spring/summer. I'm in a unique situation where I've been in tech in non-eng roles for a number of years and did it more for the mental model rather than becoming a full time engineer so did not do the ISA and rather paid up front, but just off the top of my head most people have found jobs by now, including at Twitter, AWS, ServiceNow, Yelp, Branch, some smaller YC companies, etc.

by _bxg1 7y ago

carapace 7y ago

Yeah, a gold rush, and old SF hands know the way to cash in: stay in town, sell shovels and Levi's.

vsareto 7y ago
Old SF hands might be cashing in, but many people are getting >$150k-$250k jobs out of it. The shovel analogy is stretched thin. It's more like selling gold shovels at this point: both sides get rich, but one a little more than the other.
- carapace 7y ago
  Look at the risks.

tempsy 7y ago

I mean the ISA-style bootcamps don't make any money unless you get a real SWE job (being a TA doesn't trigger the ISA) and there are good ones out there.

sandofsky 7y ago
They also make money by reselling ISAs to hedge funds. This could stop happening in a few years if the ISAs don’t pan out, and the hedge funds stop buying them. But right now the school is protected regardless of outcome. The other issue is that bootcamps can collect that money even if they provide no value. Say a student gets nothing out of the bootcamp, and spends the next three years on rigorous self-study. The only upside for students is if the bootcamp fails, and they totally give up on a career in programming. If you have an ISA hanging over your head that might cost you upwards of $30k, I’d say it’s more likely you’ll give up than if you blew $7k up-front.
- tempsy 7y ago
  i've not heard that about reselling ISAs. what's the source? which camps do that? the "other issue" is not true of the ones I've seen. most ISAs have an expiration date far shorter than 3 years. the ones in SF I've seen are 1 year. the "catch" that most people don't talk about with ISAs is that you have to actively job hunt and the school with hold you accountable for that e.g. submitting an minimum number of applications a week, going to networking events, reaching out to recruiters, etc., and if you fail to meet a minimum weekly threshold then you could trigger repayment. that is a big motivation to keep trying to get that first job.
  - sandofsky 7y ago
    https://www.wired.com/story/how-we-learn-lambda-income-sharing-agreements/ https://www.wired.com/story/how-we-learn-lambda-income-shari... "In the meantime, Lambda shifts the equation: For about half of the ISAs, the company sells the rights to a portion of its returns to investors; in return, it gets cash up front." You can even see a "Sample Offering" for Lambda School on Edly, a marketplace for reselling ISAs: https://edly.info/investors/ https://edly.info/investors/
    - tempsy 7y ago
      Ok got it - but what's the issue? This is similar to invoice financing, which is a pretty common practice. The only way I see this impacting student outcome is if the school loses motivation to help students post-graduation, but the discount for selling these ISAs must be very high.

sjc27 7y ago

FWIW I went through one of the more reputable well-known in person bootcamps this past spring/summer. I'm in a unique situation where I've been in tech in non-eng roles for a number of years and did it more for the mental model rather than becoming a full time engineer so did not do the ISA and rather paid up front, but just off the top of my head most people have found jobs by now, including at Twitter, AWS, ServiceNow, Yelp, Branch, some smaller YC companies, etc.