3 ms·

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this pretty much the same as http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2196160 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2196160

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this pretty much the same as http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2196160 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2196160 There's no graceful degradation at all, and in order to provide graceful degradation you'd have to duplicate the view templates (at the very least).

moe 16y ago
Graceful degradation becomes increasingly less relevant (except for the "degrade to internet explorer" part). When was the last time you used a browser that had no javascript? When did you last time manually confirm a cookie? User Experience trumps Graceful Degradation.
- Pewpewarrows 16y ago
  Spoken like a true novice. If you want to completely throw out search engine crawlers viewing your content, 508 compliance, and 5-10% of your visitors with Javascript disabled, then sure ignore Gracefully Degradation. Not to mention that Graceful Degradation is frowned upon to begin with, you should be Progressively Enhancing. Starting with a site deeply entrenched in spaghetti Javascript code and trying to make it work without it takes a ridiculous amount of time compared to just building the site without a single line of Javascript written to begin with, and just provide all the fancy features after you have a full, working site.
  - moe 16y ago
    Spoken like a true novice. Thanks for the assessment. I'll put that on my resume next to the 10yrs of web work. search engine crawlers http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started.html http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started... 508 compliance It may sounds harsh but most sites couldn't care less about accessibility because it's not required by law and because users with assistive devices don't account for a measurable portion of their revenue. 5-10% of your visitors with Javascript disabled Not sure what kind of site you have there, my reports are more inline with what yahoo measures (i.e. hovering around 1%): http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javascript-disabled/ http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-... Starting with a site deeply entrenched in spaghetti Javascript code and trying to make it work without it takes a ridiculous amount of time compared to just building the site without a single line of Javascript written to begin with Spoken like a true novice.
    - Pewpewarrows 16y ago
      Doing something for 10 years doesn't make the work you did over those 10 years right. http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=81766 http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en... Google, Yahoo, AOL, and several other major web companies all recommend Progressive Enhancement. But sure, you know better.
      - moe 16y ago
        Well, sorry to see you resort to argumentum ad hominem after I replied to each individual point that you made.
      - afshin 16y ago
        I think you're talking past each other. If you want to build a web-based spreadsheet application, you neither "progressively enhance" nor do you "gracefully degrade". Your browser is either a supported runtime or it's not. Sure, if you're building a content site, you will want to have progressive enhancement, but if you're building a client-side application, SEO concerns and the other concerns of content-delivery sites are less relevant.
    - glenjamin 16y ago
      508 Compliance might be a luxury in the US, but not making a website accessible would be a breach of the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) in the UK. I'm not aware of anyone attempting to enforce this however.

moe 16y ago

Graceful degradation becomes increasingly less relevant (except for the "degrade to internet explorer" part). When was the last time you used a browser that had no javascript? When did you last time manually confirm a cookie? User Experience trumps Graceful Degradation.

Pewpewarrows 16y ago
Spoken like a true novice. If you want to completely throw out search engine crawlers viewing your content, 508 compliance, and 5-10% of your visitors with Javascript disabled, then sure ignore Gracefully Degradation. Not to mention that Graceful Degradation is frowned upon to begin with, you should be Progressively Enhancing. Starting with a site deeply entrenched in spaghetti Javascript code and trying to make it work without it takes a ridiculous amount of time compared to just building the site without a single line of Javascript written to begin with, and just provide all the fancy features after you have a full, working site.
- moe 16y ago
  Spoken like a true novice. Thanks for the assessment. I'll put that on my resume next to the 10yrs of web work. search engine crawlers http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started.html http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started... 508 compliance It may sounds harsh but most sites couldn't care less about accessibility because it's not required by law and because users with assistive devices don't account for a measurable portion of their revenue. 5-10% of your visitors with Javascript disabled Not sure what kind of site you have there, my reports are more inline with what yahoo measures (i.e. hovering around 1%): http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javascript-disabled/ http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-... Starting with a site deeply entrenched in spaghetti Javascript code and trying to make it work without it takes a ridiculous amount of time compared to just building the site without a single line of Javascript written to begin with Spoken like a true novice.
  - Pewpewarrows 16y ago
    Doing something for 10 years doesn't make the work you did over those 10 years right. http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=81766 http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en... Google, Yahoo, AOL, and several other major web companies all recommend Progressive Enhancement. But sure, you know better.
    - moe 16y ago
      Well, sorry to see you resort to argumentum ad hominem after I replied to each individual point that you made.
    - afshin 16y ago
      I think you're talking past each other. If you want to build a web-based spreadsheet application, you neither "progressively enhance" nor do you "gracefully degrade". Your browser is either a supported runtime or it's not. Sure, if you're building a content site, you will want to have progressive enhancement, but if you're building a client-side application, SEO concerns and the other concerns of content-delivery sites are less relevant.
  - glenjamin 16y ago
    508 Compliance might be a luxury in the US, but not making a website accessible would be a breach of the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) in the UK. I'm not aware of anyone attempting to enforce this however.