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> NoCode/LowCode (letting anyone build an app with a spreadsheet as a database representation) AirTable has made huge inroads here. I'm also building something

by davedx 7y ago

> NoCode/LowCode (letting anyone build an app with a spreadsheet as a database representation) AirTable has made huge inroads here. I'm also building something in this area (https://lightsheets.app/ https://lightsheets.app/), turning slightly back towards spreadsheets instead of databases but then building enhancements and modern integrations on top. I think there's still lots of potential in this area, despite spreadsheets being 50 years old.

flanbiscuit 7y ago
Glide apps also falls into this realm. You make an app from a Google Sheet. Found out about it from HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19163081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19163081 https://www.glideapps.com/ https://www.glideapps.com/
mmckelvy 7y ago
I think building apps with spreadsheets makes sense, but to me the spreadsheet works better as the UI, not the database. In other words, you still store your data in a plain RDBMS, but you access and manipulate that data via spreadsheet formulas or custom functions.
- davedx 7y ago
  Maybe... but a regular spreadsheet doesn't map very well to a RDBMS due to its variable and flat structure. It might map to a column data store like Cassandra I guess, wonder if anyone has looked at that? What I'm working on though is more about taking the core of existing spreadsheets and building powerful integrations on top of it. Like in the sibling comments, building a webapp, or something else. I really think this has huge potential.
  - 80386 7y ago
    What about a spreadsheet program that can be scripted with Javascript? JS is nice because all you need to write it is a text editor and a web browser, both of which just about all computers have. I had an entry-level job that involved a computer once and automated a lot of the painful stuff with JS - I bet that if more people knew JS, more people would do the same. I don't know if that'd be a good business proposition, but I think it could be a good on-ramp.
    - davedx 7y ago
      Google Sheets uses JavaScript as its scripting language. The problems I've had there are related to how complicated it is to get data in and out of Sheets. If you want to update a sheet you own, you need to do a full blown OAuth2 implementation.
      - mmckelvy 7y ago
        Excel has an JavaScript API now as well right? At least I heard rumblings to that effect. Not sure how hard / easy it is to get data into / out of though.
czzarr 7y ago
AwesomeTable too
henryfjordan 7y ago
Airtable did some great work on the UX. Introducing people to table schemas with typed columns is pretty awesome, and the creative way they've leveraged that with the little tab that comes out of the side for either a nice view over the data (e.g. a map for an address column) or for showing Pivot Tables/Aggregations. They deserve some design awards for those ideas. But it's not a great alternative to a DB. It's really expensive per seat (twice the cost of Google Apps and you only get one app). The row limits on tables are too low. And I'd really like native webhook support to ingest row updates. I'd be very interested an Airtable clone that I can run locally on-top of Postgres or Mongo or something like that. My main use-case would be to replace expensive-to-build internal CRUD apps that really should just be spreadsheets but require bespoke integrations with other internal systems.
- nojvek 7y ago
  Awesome. Thanks for Validating. I'm going to spend the next year of my life building exactly that. Right now I've just put it a manifesto with some ideas at http://orows.com http://orows.com, but will be coming out with a proof of concept very soon.
  - henryfjordan 7y ago
    Cool! I'll add one more thought that I think might be particularly useful > Granular permissions not only at row level but field level too. You can share parts of data with others for editing or have it view-only with ability for commenting and accepting suggestions In my org (and I suspect many), many of the Sales/Operations people maintain Google Sheets with links into our internal apps. Generally it's TODO lists or other little organizational/workflow type stuff What I think makes Airtable so powerful is that foreign-keys are first class. You can create a table and include references to rows from other tables. This allows the end user to create tables to support their workflows directly in the same tool they use to manage the data, and means I don't have to build that same functionality into the CRUD app (and until you're deep in a workflow it's hard to get it perfect, so there's always back-and-forth). A good permission system would allow me to create a set of "core tables" that I tightly control the schema of, but allow others to still create tables which reference this one.
theo44 7y ago
That's what we are building over at https://clay.run https://clay.run (free preview at the moment). We built a programmable spreadsheet.
- alexbouchard 7y ago
  Been using Clay for some while. It has some nice advantages over Airtable. The developer experience is much nicer with unrestricted row colums, full sql query etc. Does a better job at bridging the gap between technical requirements and business requirements.
herval 7y ago
Every other week, someone releases a version of spreadsheet-as-database on Product Hunt. This is one of those “sounds great for engineers” memes, that’s actually not that high demand IRL source: I made one myself (and know the founders of others)

by davedx 7y ago

flanbiscuit 7y ago

Glide apps also falls into this realm. You make an app from a Google Sheet. Found out about it from HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19163081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19163081 https://www.glideapps.com/ https://www.glideapps.com/

mmckelvy 7y ago

I think building apps with spreadsheets makes sense, but to me the spreadsheet works better as the UI, not the database. In other words, you still store your data in a plain RDBMS, but you access and manipulate that data via spreadsheet formulas or custom functions.

davedx 7y ago
Maybe... but a regular spreadsheet doesn't map very well to a RDBMS due to its variable and flat structure. It might map to a column data store like Cassandra I guess, wonder if anyone has looked at that? What I'm working on though is more about taking the core of existing spreadsheets and building powerful integrations on top of it. Like in the sibling comments, building a webapp, or something else. I really think this has huge potential.
- 80386 7y ago
  What about a spreadsheet program that can be scripted with Javascript? JS is nice because all you need to write it is a text editor and a web browser, both of which just about all computers have. I had an entry-level job that involved a computer once and automated a lot of the painful stuff with JS - I bet that if more people knew JS, more people would do the same. I don't know if that'd be a good business proposition, but I think it could be a good on-ramp.
  - davedx 7y ago
    Google Sheets uses JavaScript as its scripting language. The problems I've had there are related to how complicated it is to get data in and out of Sheets. If you want to update a sheet you own, you need to do a full blown OAuth2 implementation.
    - mmckelvy 7y ago
      Excel has an JavaScript API now as well right? At least I heard rumblings to that effect. Not sure how hard / easy it is to get data into / out of though.

czzarr 7y ago

AwesomeTable too

henryfjordan 7y ago

Airtable did some great work on the UX. Introducing people to table schemas with typed columns is pretty awesome, and the creative way they've leveraged that with the little tab that comes out of the side for either a nice view over the data (e.g. a map for an address column) or for showing Pivot Tables/Aggregations. They deserve some design awards for those ideas. But it's not a great alternative to a DB. It's really expensive per seat (twice the cost of Google Apps and you only get one app). The row limits on tables are too low. And I'd really like native webhook support to ingest row updates. I'd be very interested an Airtable clone that I can run locally on-top of Postgres or Mongo or something like that. My main use-case would be to replace expensive-to-build internal CRUD apps that really should just be spreadsheets but require bespoke integrations with other internal systems.

nojvek 7y ago
Awesome. Thanks for Validating. I'm going to spend the next year of my life building exactly that. Right now I've just put it a manifesto with some ideas at http://orows.com http://orows.com, but will be coming out with a proof of concept very soon.
- henryfjordan 7y ago
  Cool! I'll add one more thought that I think might be particularly useful > Granular permissions not only at row level but field level too. You can share parts of data with others for editing or have it view-only with ability for commenting and accepting suggestions In my org (and I suspect many), many of the Sales/Operations people maintain Google Sheets with links into our internal apps. Generally it's TODO lists or other little organizational/workflow type stuff What I think makes Airtable so powerful is that foreign-keys are first class. You can create a table and include references to rows from other tables. This allows the end user to create tables to support their workflows directly in the same tool they use to manage the data, and means I don't have to build that same functionality into the CRUD app (and until you're deep in a workflow it's hard to get it perfect, so there's always back-and-forth). A good permission system would allow me to create a set of "core tables" that I tightly control the schema of, but allow others to still create tables which reference this one.

theo44 7y ago

That's what we are building over at https://clay.run https://clay.run (free preview at the moment). We built a programmable spreadsheet.

alexbouchard 7y ago
Been using Clay for some while. It has some nice advantages over Airtable. The developer experience is much nicer with unrestricted row colums, full sql query etc. Does a better job at bridging the gap between technical requirements and business requirements.

herval 7y ago

Every other week, someone releases a version of spreadsheet-as-database on Product Hunt. This is one of those “sounds great for engineers” memes, that’s actually not that high demand IRL source: I made one myself (and know the founders of others)