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Looks like us over here in Europe are getting shafted. Even if you adjust for living expenses, European engineers are grossly underpaid.

chillacy 7y ago
It's even worse because many of these companies have offices in Europe and pay European market rates. Same company, same level, big differences in compensation. And it's not just Europe too, same in Canada, Singapore, Israel, etc.
- gamesbrainiac 7y ago
  It is really quite sad. I know that Zurich is a little better when it comes to compensation, but I don't have any of the specifics.
treve 7y ago
I don't really understand why people would feel they are shafted. The reason people get paid that much is because of supply and demand, but it has little to do with what you deserve to get. Does a software engineer really need 5-10x salary compared to their peers in other industries? Given that the salaries are so driven by market demand, it makes total sense that there's large differences in other markets. It doesn't mean you're getting shafted. Low minimum wages is what we should be getting angry about.
Pandabob 7y ago
I might be wrong here, but I think the biggest reason for this is that Europe hasn't really produced a tech company in the past ~25 years, with revenues (and profits) amounting to anything close to those of the FAANGs. OTOH, there is the separate issue of FAANGs not compensating their European workers as well as they do the ones working in the US.
- rimliu 7y ago
  The only consolation is that Europe produced WWW and a number of programming languages creators :)
  - Pandabob 7y ago
    Sure, but that's small consolation if you're not able to capture the value. That said, as a Finn, I'm quite happy about Linus Torvalds. Still, almost all industries will be tech-enabled in the future (software eating the world etc.), so one would expect European banks for example to up their game when it comes to tech salaries. Alas, it seems that they're are also quite poorly run [1], so I wouldn't hold my breath. Also, apart from Spotify, European tech workers haven't been able to enjoy the benefits of the streaming wars. And even Spotify is hamstrung by relatively low margins due to high licensing costs [2]. I guess the one industry that might have already increased their rates for SWEs is the car industry and specifically, the relatively profitable German car brands. But it seems they're more focused now on producing electric cars rather than creating online services [3]. As a European tech worker, if you're not willing or able to move to the US, two good options can be to get involved with local startups or to go into independent consulting. Maybe a little ironically, the opportunity costs of starting or working for a startup in Europe might be lower than in the US, due to the smaller pay gap. [1]: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/04/06/fixing-europes-zombie-banks https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/04/06/fixing-europes-... [2]: https://www.statista.com/chart/13406/gross-margin-of-spotify-and-netflix/ https://www.statista.com/chart/13406/gross-margin-of-spotify... [3]: https://www.ft.com/content/81a5030c-1a64-11ea-97df-cc63de1d73f4 https://www.ft.com/content/81a5030c-1a64-11ea-97df-cc63de1d7... (apologies for the paywall).
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  > OTOH, there is the separate issue of FAANGs not compensating their European workers as well as they do the ones working in the US. They don't, but they do compensate them similarly relative to the local average pay. They pay what they need to to get the talent they want. I work at Google Munich, the pay here is much higher than a regular company in Munich, similarly to how Google pays much more than a regular company in the US. In some ways the difference is even more striking here, because there are few peer companies here that pay similarly to Google (there's a Lyft office, and a small number of Amazon devs, that's about it AFAIK), whereas in major tech hubs in the US you usually also have Facebook and Apple and Amazon and Microsoft and Netflix and various others that are similar or close.
  - Pandabob 7y ago
    Sure this makes sense, and I've heard rumblings that the average pay in the Berlin startup scene has been climbing these past few years. But I guess we're still far away from someone with five years of experience making 400-500k per year.
TrackerFF 7y ago
It very much depends on industry. It's typical that industries with a lot of money also pays higher salaries. When I first started out as an Engineer in oil and gas, salaries had peaked. Senior Engineers were getting paid $300k-$400k. The brain drain was real. Why would any engineer bother with other sectors, when you could get paid 50%-100% more in O&G, compared to other sectors? Startups, almost no mater how well-funded (by European standards), couldn't compete. But, surprise surprise, the good days came to an end - massive layoffs, and people suddenly found themselves in those other "lesser" industries, with massive pay cuts. The good news is that I've seen an explosion in entrepreneurship and tech the past 5-10 years, and people are more willing to try those routes, as well as that the VC community seems to grow stronger.
Vadoff 7y ago
Just join a FAANG company that has a branch office in Europe. They'll pay a bit less, but a senior engineer should still be able to get 250k+/yr.
- yc-kraln 7y ago
  Nah, I got an offer letter from Amazon in Berlin, and it was easily 1/10th the compensation they offered to people in NYC or SF (compared with Levels). I made sure with the recruiter that I understood the position and the internal salary ranking--then I told them I would not be taking the position as I found their offer insulting.
- nvarsj 7y ago
  It's not a "bit less". A senior engineer in sunnyvale is making 400k+ a year. That's nearly 70% more pay. Assuming 250k is correct, which I'm doubtful of.
  - gamesbrainiac 7y ago
    I can assure you, that you'd be lucky to be making anything north of 150k. 150 is for principal and above.
varjag 7y ago
Income equality is double edged sword.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  Exactly. We talk about income inequality being bad, but obviously if you're on the higher side of the average, it has a direct financial benefit (though other aspects, like a higher crime rate, are still bad for you).
tootie 7y ago
Just to be clear, most engineers in the US aren't getting close to this either. This is only for top companies. Even good engineers at "normal" companies in the US are getting less than half this much.

chillacy 7y ago

It's even worse because many of these companies have offices in Europe and pay European market rates. Same company, same level, big differences in compensation. And it's not just Europe too, same in Canada, Singapore, Israel, etc.

gamesbrainiac 7y ago
It is really quite sad. I know that Zurich is a little better when it comes to compensation, but I don't have any of the specifics.

treve 7y ago

I don't really understand why people would feel they are shafted. The reason people get paid that much is because of supply and demand, but it has little to do with what you deserve to get. Does a software engineer really need 5-10x salary compared to their peers in other industries? Given that the salaries are so driven by market demand, it makes total sense that there's large differences in other markets. It doesn't mean you're getting shafted. Low minimum wages is what we should be getting angry about.

Pandabob 7y ago

I might be wrong here, but I think the biggest reason for this is that Europe hasn't really produced a tech company in the past ~25 years, with revenues (and profits) amounting to anything close to those of the FAANGs. OTOH, there is the separate issue of FAANGs not compensating their European workers as well as they do the ones working in the US.

rimliu 7y ago
The only consolation is that Europe produced WWW and a number of programming languages creators :)
- Pandabob 7y ago
  Sure, but that's small consolation if you're not able to capture the value. That said, as a Finn, I'm quite happy about Linus Torvalds. Still, almost all industries will be tech-enabled in the future (software eating the world etc.), so one would expect European banks for example to up their game when it comes to tech salaries. Alas, it seems that they're are also quite poorly run [1], so I wouldn't hold my breath. Also, apart from Spotify, European tech workers haven't been able to enjoy the benefits of the streaming wars. And even Spotify is hamstrung by relatively low margins due to high licensing costs [2]. I guess the one industry that might have already increased their rates for SWEs is the car industry and specifically, the relatively profitable German car brands. But it seems they're more focused now on producing electric cars rather than creating online services [3]. As a European tech worker, if you're not willing or able to move to the US, two good options can be to get involved with local startups or to go into independent consulting. Maybe a little ironically, the opportunity costs of starting or working for a startup in Europe might be lower than in the US, due to the smaller pay gap. [1]: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/04/06/fixing-europes-zombie-banks https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/04/06/fixing-europes-... [2]: https://www.statista.com/chart/13406/gross-margin-of-spotify-and-netflix/ https://www.statista.com/chart/13406/gross-margin-of-spotify... [3]: https://www.ft.com/content/81a5030c-1a64-11ea-97df-cc63de1d73f4 https://www.ft.com/content/81a5030c-1a64-11ea-97df-cc63de1d7... (apologies for the paywall).
TulliusCicero 7y ago
> OTOH, there is the separate issue of FAANGs not compensating their European workers as well as they do the ones working in the US. They don't, but they do compensate them similarly relative to the local average pay. They pay what they need to to get the talent they want. I work at Google Munich, the pay here is much higher than a regular company in Munich, similarly to how Google pays much more than a regular company in the US. In some ways the difference is even more striking here, because there are few peer companies here that pay similarly to Google (there's a Lyft office, and a small number of Amazon devs, that's about it AFAIK), whereas in major tech hubs in the US you usually also have Facebook and Apple and Amazon and Microsoft and Netflix and various others that are similar or close.
- Pandabob 7y ago
  Sure this makes sense, and I've heard rumblings that the average pay in the Berlin startup scene has been climbing these past few years. But I guess we're still far away from someone with five years of experience making 400-500k per year.

TrackerFF 7y ago

It very much depends on industry. It's typical that industries with a lot of money also pays higher salaries. When I first started out as an Engineer in oil and gas, salaries had peaked. Senior Engineers were getting paid $300k-$400k. The brain drain was real. Why would any engineer bother with other sectors, when you could get paid 50%-100% more in O&G, compared to other sectors? Startups, almost no mater how well-funded (by European standards), couldn't compete. But, surprise surprise, the good days came to an end - massive layoffs, and people suddenly found themselves in those other "lesser" industries, with massive pay cuts. The good news is that I've seen an explosion in entrepreneurship and tech the past 5-10 years, and people are more willing to try those routes, as well as that the VC community seems to grow stronger.

Vadoff 7y ago

Just join a FAANG company that has a branch office in Europe. They'll pay a bit less, but a senior engineer should still be able to get 250k+/yr.

yc-kraln 7y ago
Nah, I got an offer letter from Amazon in Berlin, and it was easily 1/10th the compensation they offered to people in NYC or SF (compared with Levels). I made sure with the recruiter that I understood the position and the internal salary ranking--then I told them I would not be taking the position as I found their offer insulting.
nvarsj 7y ago
It's not a "bit less". A senior engineer in sunnyvale is making 400k+ a year. That's nearly 70% more pay. Assuming 250k is correct, which I'm doubtful of.
- gamesbrainiac 7y ago
  I can assure you, that you'd be lucky to be making anything north of 150k. 150 is for principal and above.

varjag 7y ago

Income equality is double edged sword.

TulliusCicero 7y ago
Exactly. We talk about income inequality being bad, but obviously if you're on the higher side of the average, it has a direct financial benefit (though other aspects, like a higher crime rate, are still bad for you).

tootie 7y ago

Just to be clear, most engineers in the US aren't getting close to this either. This is only for top companies. Even good engineers at "normal" companies in the US are getting less than half this much.