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>And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? From what the media sources I follow ha

>And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? From what the media sources I follow has told me about the Iranian people, they are all fairly educated and the country has an established scholarly system that enables most citizens to achieve greater education. As I saw further down in the thread that you are actually an Iranian yourself, please correct me if I am wrong. >This is sickening. You _saw_ what the U.S. did to Iraq and Afghanistan and you're "still" thinking the way to bring democracy to the country next to them is bombs? I was 4 years old when the Iraq war began. I did not "see" anything about the war and all the information I have has been provided to me by news organizations and various social media that I try to follow to educate myself on the topic. I have not been in Iraq myself nor spoken to Iraqi people so I have no way of knowing what the war has done to them other than what the media says. And since the media does not provide a unified narrative, it is rather difficult for me to decipher the truth. As for bringing democracy...I do not know any way to bring democracy to a theocracy without violence. I do not believe it has ever happened peacefully in world history. I would like to make it clear that I am not advocating for war in Iran, but replying to the OP (hence why I said "in that regards") who said: >I agree. It's really sad. Iran had/has so much potential. In my view, destabilizing the regime provides some path to democracy, while keeping it in place provides no path to democracy. >Don't you think you should be more responsible than that? What if you are wrong? What if another Iraq came out of this? As I said before, I don't believe there is any "responsible" way to perform regime change. I am an optimist, and I am simply hoping that this ends up going in a positive direction for the sake of my country and the sake of the Iranian people. >By withdrawing from Iran's nuclear deal, U.S. practically destroyed any chance of a peaceful path for Iran to democracy. As an Iranian yourself, do you really think it was ever possible that the hardliners would voluntarily step down themselves? I agree that JCPOA should have been upheld, but I frankly don't know enough to say if it would have set Iran on a path to democracy. >But U.S. is a democracy and people who do have the power, get their power from your thoughts and your vote. I was not old enough to vote for Trump in 2016 and I will not be voting for him. As stated before, I do not support a war in Iran. >So I do hold you responsible for the actions of your government. I have not yet made enough money to pay federal taxes, so my hands are clean for at least the next few months. I do understand your point though. I think it is important to point out that this strike was approved by one man and one man only. I was not given a choice to vote on it. My Representatives and Senators were not given a choice to vote on it. They were not even informed. The closest the common American got to voting on this was in the popular vote in 2016, which...Trump lost. That is perhaps a bigger problem than all of this. >My apologies for personal attack. No need for apology. I understand you just want the best for your country. I have met several Iranian friends in college and I would like to see a democratic revolution that would make them proud. I personally do not believe Iran is at its best right now, and I doubt you do too. I can only optimistically hope that this conflict leads to a democratic Iran and a more righteous United States, for I do not have any way to alter what happens for now until November.

3131s 7y ago
> I was 4 years old when the Iraq war began. It doesn't fully excuse your ignorance but at least you have time to gain some perspective. As it is now what you're saying here is embarrassing to me as a fellow American.
emilsedgh 7y ago
> From what the media sources I follow has told me about the Iranian people, they are all fairly educated and the country has an established scholarly system that enables most citizens to achieve greater education. As I saw further down in the thread that you are actually an Iranian yourself, please correct me if I am wrong. Iran is a big country with very big divisions. Younger people and middle class are educated and relatively secular but the older generations and specially rural areas can be very backwards. > In my view, destabilizing the regime provides some path to democracy, while keeping it in place provides no path to democracy. It could potentially lead to democracy. But it could lead to far far worse outcomes as well. In Iran's case, the worse outcomes are more likely because: 1. Geographically, it's literally in-between Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan and therefore ISIS, Taliban and Al-Qaeda. 2. Thanks to Islamic Republic, it has big enemies, including but not limited to USA, Saudi Arabia and Israel. 3. It has vast natural resources (Oil, Gas) and attracts foreign interests. 4. Revolutions are _rarely_ constructive. Read George Orwell's Animal Farm. When I first I read, I though, how could this man write the book of Islamic Republic so many decades earlier? But it turns out almost all revolutions have a similar trajectory: They go to shit. > As I said before, I don't believe there is any "responsible" way to perform regime change. > As an Iranian yourself, do you really think it was ever possible that the hardliners would voluntarily step down themselves? I agree that JCPOA should have been upheld, but I frankly don't know enough to say if it would have set Iran on a path to democracy. Of course no hardliner is ever going to step down. However, by allowing reformers and moderate forces to make progress, we give them more power. It won't be quick at all. Takes decades and generations. But to me it seems the only real and viable path. > I have not yet made enough money to pay federal taxes, so my hands are clean for at least the next few months. I do understand your point though. Don't beat yourself to it. Even if you were a taxpayer I wouldn't ever think your hands are not clean. I'm an American taxpayer myself. I live in the states. I don't think anyone who paid tax to the U.S. has blood on their hands or whatever. All I'm saying is, when talking about war, or supporting it, let's make sure we have a really good understanding of the subject matter. Otherwise we could be supporting an unjust war. Sorry again about the personal attack. Harsh times.

3131s 7y ago

> I was 4 years old when the Iraq war began. It doesn't fully excuse your ignorance but at least you have time to gain some perspective. As it is now what you're saying here is embarrassing to me as a fellow American.

emilsedgh 7y ago

> From what the media sources I follow has told me about the Iranian people, they are all fairly educated and the country has an established scholarly system that enables most citizens to achieve greater education. As I saw further down in the thread that you are actually an Iranian yourself, please correct me if I am wrong. Iran is a big country with very big divisions. Younger people and middle class are educated and relatively secular but the older generations and specially rural areas can be very backwards. > In my view, destabilizing the regime provides some path to democracy, while keeping it in place provides no path to democracy. It could potentially lead to democracy. But it could lead to far far worse outcomes as well. In Iran's case, the worse outcomes are more likely because: 1. Geographically, it's literally in-between Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan and therefore ISIS, Taliban and Al-Qaeda. 2. Thanks to Islamic Republic, it has big enemies, including but not limited to USA, Saudi Arabia and Israel. 3. It has vast natural resources (Oil, Gas) and attracts foreign interests. 4. Revolutions are _rarely_ constructive. Read George Orwell's Animal Farm. When I first I read, I though, how could this man write the book of Islamic Republic so many decades earlier? But it turns out almost all revolutions have a similar trajectory: They go to shit. > As I said before, I don't believe there is any "responsible" way to perform regime change. > As an Iranian yourself, do you really think it was ever possible that the hardliners would voluntarily step down themselves? I agree that JCPOA should have been upheld, but I frankly don't know enough to say if it would have set Iran on a path to democracy. Of course no hardliner is ever going to step down. However, by allowing reformers and moderate forces to make progress, we give them more power. It won't be quick at all. Takes decades and generations. But to me it seems the only real and viable path. > I have not yet made enough money to pay federal taxes, so my hands are clean for at least the next few months. I do understand your point though. Don't beat yourself to it. Even if you were a taxpayer I wouldn't ever think your hands are not clean. I'm an American taxpayer myself. I live in the states. I don't think anyone who paid tax to the U.S. has blood on their hands or whatever. All I'm saying is, when talking about war, or supporting it, let's make sure we have a really good understanding of the subject matter. Otherwise we could be supporting an unjust war. Sorry again about the personal attack. Harsh times.