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"I also consider a model adjusting for covariates (author/average-rating/year), to see what books are most surprisingly often-abandoned given their pedigrees &

"I also consider a model adjusting for covariates (author/average-rating/year), to see what books are most surprisingly often-abandoned given their pedigrees & rating etc." Infinite Jest? Surprising? Have you actually tried reading that bloated example of The MFA Guy's Novel? I also find myself wondering if American Gods would be #3 on the first version of this list if it had been compiled before the TV show version of that book.

AlexCoventry 7y ago
I read it alongside some page-by-page annotations, which made it fairly approachable and entertaining. These annotations, IIRC. https://infinitejest.wallacewiki.com/david-foster-wallace/index.php?title=Main_Page#Page_by_Page_Annotations https://infinitejest.wallacewiki.com/david-foster-wallace/in... Wallace was pretty explicit about making readers of his books work for the privilege, though, which could get a bit annoying.
7thaccount 7y ago
Oddly enough I also quit reading American Gods (rare for a Gaiman book), but I don't remember it being difficult. I just kind of lost interest.
- dorchadas 7y ago
  American Gods was the least favorite of the Gaiman books I've (tried to) read. I love Neverwhere, which might be my favorite book, and Stardust is up there too, but I just couldn't get into American Gods, and have avoided Anasazi Boys because of this.
  - 7thaccount 7y ago
    I really liked Neverwhere, The Graveyard Book, all his short story collections, Coraline...and Stardust is probably in my top 5 favorite movies (so much to where I'm scared to read the book). I'm not a big Sandman fan...it is just so dark.
  - officemonkey 7y ago
    I think you would enjoy Anansi Boys. It doesn't have that much to do with American Gods, and it's a really fun story.
- randycupertino 7y ago
  I'm a stickler for slogging through books even when I'm not feeling them- and will go back a second and third time to try and reattempt- but I gave up on American Gods because it was just such a bore and slow burn. I would have rather watched the paint dry or reruns of Friends. For Game of Thrones I tried the audiobooks but Roy Dotrice was a horrible narrator- too breathy, too phlegmy and every character - even the women- had the same voice. I'd rather have had a straight read with someone not trying to act the characters than someone who did the all poorly. Game of Thrones is one of /r/audible on reddit's most requested to be re-recorded books. Would love to see them unleash an awesome narrator - such as Ray Porter - on them to really make them shine.
AmericanChopper 7y ago
I hadn’t actually considered that. I’ve read 3 of the books on the top 5, and think they’re great books. But all of them have been made into TV shows now, which could explain it. Catch 22 is probably my favourite book of all time, but it’s long and kinda disorienting to read (every chapter is out of order, except for the last one). I guess it makes sense people would pick it up after watching the TV show, and then give up on it.
gwern 7y ago
I read and liked Infinite Jest, yes. But you are missing the point, and you are making the error which is why I spent several paragraphs discussing what it means to 'control for' something by adding it as a covariate in a model. No one is surprised that IJ is often abandoned, either in absolute or proportional; but it is more surprising that the model is surprised by IJ's abandonment rates even after taking into account that it's by DFW and its current star-ratings and when it was published.
- Avamander 7y ago
  I'm sure Infinite Jest has a certain type of people to like it though, it isn't "missing a point", it's personal preference.
  - x1798DE 7y ago
    I think gwern is saying that the parent post is missing the point of the "surprising" metric, not missing the point of Infinite Jest.
- lmm 7y ago
  Star ratings and author don't really capture why a human observer would expect a lot of people to start and abandon this book though. You'd need some kind of measure of difficulty and/or trendiness.
samatman 7y ago
I enjoyed American Gods, but I read it when it first came out. There has subsequently been published an "Author's Preferred Text" edition, and I've heard from others that it's substantially longer without thereby being improved. I don't know if Gwern's data accounts for this, or can, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's at the root of it. Anyway, if you're tempted to read it, try and find the original edit.

AlexCoventry 7y ago

I read it alongside some page-by-page annotations, which made it fairly approachable and entertaining. These annotations, IIRC. https://infinitejest.wallacewiki.com/david-foster-wallace/index.php?title=Main_Page#Page_by_Page_Annotations https://infinitejest.wallacewiki.com/david-foster-wallace/in... Wallace was pretty explicit about making readers of his books work for the privilege, though, which could get a bit annoying.

7thaccount 7y ago

Oddly enough I also quit reading American Gods (rare for a Gaiman book), but I don't remember it being difficult. I just kind of lost interest.

dorchadas 7y ago
American Gods was the least favorite of the Gaiman books I've (tried to) read. I love Neverwhere, which might be my favorite book, and Stardust is up there too, but I just couldn't get into American Gods, and have avoided Anasazi Boys because of this.
- 7thaccount 7y ago
  I really liked Neverwhere, The Graveyard Book, all his short story collections, Coraline...and Stardust is probably in my top 5 favorite movies (so much to where I'm scared to read the book). I'm not a big Sandman fan...it is just so dark.
- officemonkey 7y ago
  I think you would enjoy Anansi Boys. It doesn't have that much to do with American Gods, and it's a really fun story.
randycupertino 7y ago
I'm a stickler for slogging through books even when I'm not feeling them- and will go back a second and third time to try and reattempt- but I gave up on American Gods because it was just such a bore and slow burn. I would have rather watched the paint dry or reruns of Friends. For Game of Thrones I tried the audiobooks but Roy Dotrice was a horrible narrator- too breathy, too phlegmy and every character - even the women- had the same voice. I'd rather have had a straight read with someone not trying to act the characters than someone who did the all poorly. Game of Thrones is one of /r/audible on reddit's most requested to be re-recorded books. Would love to see them unleash an awesome narrator - such as Ray Porter - on them to really make them shine.

AmericanChopper 7y ago

I hadn’t actually considered that. I’ve read 3 of the books on the top 5, and think they’re great books. But all of them have been made into TV shows now, which could explain it. Catch 22 is probably my favourite book of all time, but it’s long and kinda disorienting to read (every chapter is out of order, except for the last one). I guess it makes sense people would pick it up after watching the TV show, and then give up on it.

gwern 7y ago

I read and liked Infinite Jest, yes. But you are missing the point, and you are making the error which is why I spent several paragraphs discussing what it means to 'control for' something by adding it as a covariate in a model. No one is surprised that IJ is often abandoned, either in absolute or proportional; but it is more surprising that the model is surprised by IJ's abandonment rates even after taking into account that it's by DFW and its current star-ratings and when it was published.

Avamander 7y ago
I'm sure Infinite Jest has a certain type of people to like it though, it isn't "missing a point", it's personal preference.
- x1798DE 7y ago
  I think gwern is saying that the parent post is missing the point of the "surprising" metric, not missing the point of Infinite Jest.
lmm 7y ago
Star ratings and author don't really capture why a human observer would expect a lot of people to start and abandon this book though. You'd need some kind of measure of difficulty and/or trendiness.

samatman 7y ago

I enjoyed American Gods, but I read it when it first came out. There has subsequently been published an "Author's Preferred Text" edition, and I've heard from others that it's substantially longer without thereby being improved. I don't know if Gwern's data accounts for this, or can, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's at the root of it. Anyway, if you're tempted to read it, try and find the original edit.