5 ms·

My big takeaway from this is that religions can be quite bizarre. You have this omnipotent god with all these crazy rules that are required but will be totally

My big takeaway from this is that religions can be quite bizarre. You have this omnipotent god with all these crazy rules that are required but will be totally ok if you find a loophole... maybe it's just people that are strange?

seemslegit 7y ago
basically Rabbis as early as 1700 years ago are on record as implying: "off-the-record, God is an entirely fictional entity, we get it, we really do, but it's a useful fictional entity to ground the foundations of morals, law and society (and our own status as its meritocratic authority) in, and in order for it to work we must treat it as real - no breaking kayfabe on this even to ourselves and even if this means adhering to the weirder laws attributed to this God from ancient times, at least until we figure a credible way to interpret them away"
- seemslegit 7y ago
  By "weird" here I actually meant those deemed socially or economically harmful or untenable, such as slavery, mandatory periodic absolution of debts or polygamy - laws that are just weird but without direct adverse impact are being deliberately kept on as means of reenforcing in-group cohesion through ritual - aka "tradition".
- jrochkind1 7y ago
  I am interested in this topic, can you give me more of a cite or direction for the Rabbis ~1700 years ago implying God as fictional entity? I'm not doubting it, the contrary, it seems quite plausible to me and exciting enough that I'd like the source! Rather than "some guy on HN said that some rabbis said something like" heh. And for more study.
- vageli 7y ago
  Do you have anywhere I can read more about this? Specifically the acknowledgement of God as nothing more than a convenient organizing principle for a society?
- seemslegit 7y ago
  The "Oven of Achnai" story that is mentioned elsewhere here in the thread. 1700 years ago is roughly the canonization of the Mishnah, but since the story is presented as a legend in the Talmud it would probably be more accurately attributed to the authors of the Talmud some centuries later.
- ssully 7y ago
  Love that Rabbis 1700 years ago were using the wrestling terms like kayfabe
  - seemslegit 7y ago
    also terms like 'off-the-record'
- sam_goody 7y ago
  "...are on record as implying" [citation needed]. You obviously have no idea how much the Rabbis (or even the layman Orthodox) believe this stuff. It makes no sense that the people who gave up their lives rather than give in on minutiae didn't believe in G-d. Without sources, your claim should be dismissed as projection or wishful thinking.
  - seemslegit 7y ago
    > "...are on record as implying" [citation needed]. Citation brought bellow in this thread, whether or not it implies what I believe it implies is probably not an argument to be had here. > You obviously have no idea how much the Rabbis (or even the layman Orthodox) believe this stuff. You obviously have no idea how different the notion of G-d as taught by some Rabbis is from the one that is presented to the layman Orthodox. For that matter the way that the Pope thinks of G-d today is not the same that the layman Christian does. And I don't believe that all of them believe in G-d allegorically but I think the foundational ones mentioned in the Talmud did, the Rambam (Maimonides) too probably. > It makes no sense that the people who gave up their lives rather than give in on minutiae didn't believe in G-d. It makes the same amount of sense for a literal belief as it does for an allegorical one, the 'minutiae' is a symbol for the underlying principle of self-determination. > Without sources, your claim should be dismissed as projection or wishful thinking. Precisely.

seemslegit 7y ago

basically Rabbis as early as 1700 years ago are on record as implying: "off-the-record, God is an entirely fictional entity, we get it, we really do, but it's a useful fictional entity to ground the foundations of morals, law and society (and our own status as its meritocratic authority) in, and in order for it to work we must treat it as real - no breaking kayfabe on this even to ourselves and even if this means adhering to the weirder laws attributed to this God from ancient times, at least until we figure a credible way to interpret them away"

seemslegit 7y ago
By "weird" here I actually meant those deemed socially or economically harmful or untenable, such as slavery, mandatory periodic absolution of debts or polygamy - laws that are just weird but without direct adverse impact are being deliberately kept on as means of reenforcing in-group cohesion through ritual - aka "tradition".
jrochkind1 7y ago
I am interested in this topic, can you give me more of a cite or direction for the Rabbis ~1700 years ago implying God as fictional entity? I'm not doubting it, the contrary, it seems quite plausible to me and exciting enough that I'd like the source! Rather than "some guy on HN said that some rabbis said something like" heh. And for more study.
vageli 7y ago
Do you have anywhere I can read more about this? Specifically the acknowledgement of God as nothing more than a convenient organizing principle for a society?
seemslegit 7y ago
The "Oven of Achnai" story that is mentioned elsewhere here in the thread. 1700 years ago is roughly the canonization of the Mishnah, but since the story is presented as a legend in the Talmud it would probably be more accurately attributed to the authors of the Talmud some centuries later.
ssully 7y ago
Love that Rabbis 1700 years ago were using the wrestling terms like kayfabe
- seemslegit 7y ago
  also terms like 'off-the-record'
sam_goody 7y ago
"...are on record as implying" [citation needed]. You obviously have no idea how much the Rabbis (or even the layman Orthodox) believe this stuff. It makes no sense that the people who gave up their lives rather than give in on minutiae didn't believe in G-d. Without sources, your claim should be dismissed as projection or wishful thinking.
- seemslegit 7y ago
  > "...are on record as implying" [citation needed]. Citation brought bellow in this thread, whether or not it implies what I believe it implies is probably not an argument to be had here. > You obviously have no idea how much the Rabbis (or even the layman Orthodox) believe this stuff. You obviously have no idea how different the notion of G-d as taught by some Rabbis is from the one that is presented to the layman Orthodox. For that matter the way that the Pope thinks of G-d today is not the same that the layman Christian does. And I don't believe that all of them believe in G-d allegorically but I think the foundational ones mentioned in the Talmud did, the Rambam (Maimonides) too probably. > It makes no sense that the people who gave up their lives rather than give in on minutiae didn't believe in G-d. It makes the same amount of sense for a literal belief as it does for an allegorical one, the 'minutiae' is a symbol for the underlying principle of self-determination. > Without sources, your claim should be dismissed as projection or wishful thinking. Precisely.