4 ms·

The first section of Linus's answer reads really rough to me and almost made me stop reading, imagining that it was going to be yet an other entry in the "Linus

by simias 7y ago

The first section of Linus's answer reads really rough to me and almost made me stop reading, imagining that it was going to be yet an other entry in the "Linus bullies some poor coder into submission by insulting them until they just stop responding" which is a shame because there's a lot of interesting content after that. I guess I invite the people who had the same knee-jerk reaction I had to give the post a 2nd chance and power through Linus' unnecessarily harsh tone to get to the good stuff. >Sure, I guess "garbage" comes off a little mean, but "the author has a common misconception" almost sounds more passive-aggressive to me. The latter might be slightly passive-aggressive (although it doesn't have to be), the former is simply aggressive-aggressive.

needs 7y ago
As long as Linus is blaming the work done and not the people behind it, that's fine. Something truly aggressive would be "This benchmark is garbage and the people responsible for writing it are monkeys on crack". He did such things in the past, but in the 4 emails I got to find on this specific benchmark, none of them critic people writing code. I think Linus got upset that a badly designed benchmark got popular and therefor is spreading misconceptions. His strongly worded answer is getting popular too and as a result everybody learns and he has stopped an urban legend from spreading. A success on every points.
- speedplane 7y ago
  > As long as Linus is blaming the work done and not the people behind it, that's fine. Certainly, ad hominem attacks are worse than making substantive attacks, but is that really the standard we should judge it by? Instead of a sprawling thread of visceral, wouldn't it be better if he just explained the reasons why the approach is bad in a professional manner? Writing like this just seems sloppy and non-professional. It's rambling and unclear. It could have been far more effective if written point-by-point with far less emotion.
  - xelxebar 7y ago
    Calling out non-professionalism and bashing a stranger's communication style are, perhaps ironically, nice examples of non-professional behavior. I would answer your rhetorical questions with an emphatic "no." People's emotions and mental state are important. It's also important that we communicate, understand, and think about people's interior worlds. Question for you: What else is Linus communicating with his writing style? Does he show that he cares? About what? What can we tell about his values? Are these values we want in a leader? Sometimes it's good to take off the prescriptivist hat and try on Honest Curiosity.
    - loopz 7y ago
      If what you're measuring are random delays due to default scheduling and flawed code implementation, calling it "garbage" should give the author and others pause to think. In some cases, one need to establish a boundary, so as to not waste time and efforts into an endless discussion on flawed premises. Explaining why and educating about the concepts, is the better approach, and was there as well. Short and concise would be best, while limiting the negative to exactly what need be pointed out: A spade is a spade after all. If it stops people from developing "their own userspace spinlocks", it may even be kind of necessary to be quite direct.
    - speedplane 7y ago
      > Calling out non-professionalism and bashing a stranger's communication style are, perhaps ironically, nice examples of non-professional behavior. I don't see how this is the case. One can critique a style of communication professionally just like any endeavor. I'm not "bashing" Linus, or even suggesting that he should be less honest. Just that there are far more effective ways to make the same point.
- simias 7y ago
  >As long as Linus is blaming the work done and not the people behind it, that's fine. I think your comment is just wrong and generally pure garbage. I can't believe some poor server will have to host this nonsense for years to come. It's the most inane thing I've read all year. I'm just talking about your comment, not you though, so clearly no hard feelings here and it's definitely the right way to frame my argument to have a nice, peaceful and constructive technical discussion.
  - mda 7y ago
    Except your attempt is not exactly analogus to the situation discussed.
  - needs 7y ago
    Believe it or not, it's one way or another to formulate a critic, and I'm fine with it. However your strongly worded answer lacks arguments, so color me unconvinced.
  - AndriyKunitsyn 7y ago
    No, reductio ad absurdum is not an argument. What you wrote is an exercise in swearing. What Linus wrote is getting his point across. It is certainly possible to describe a code with bad words without hurting the feelings of person who made it, and I think, in order for it to work everyone has to understand that everybody writes “garbage” or “crap” code sometimes, so when it happens, it’s not a big deal; it shouldn’t hurt your professional dignity. On my job, in team of 4, we do it from time to time and it’s just much mentally easier, streamlined - and yes, constructive to conduct code reviews this way. I understand this may not work for other, bigger teams, but it’s certainly a valid way.
    - polishTar 7y ago
      There were ways for him to communicate those same ideas less negatively. And it was more than just the "garbage" line. It was also things like "If I haven't convinced you of that by now, I don't know what I can say.", and "See how simplistic - and self-centered - your expectation is?". Writing this way doesn't "streamline" anything. I interpreted it as a negative interaction, and clearly others have as well including the original author (since he said as much in his response).
diffeomorphism 7y ago
> yet an other entry in the "Linus bullies some poor coder into submission by insulting them until they just stop responding" Has that ever happened? My impression was that he only ever takes a rough tone with high profile coders and is nice and polite to "poor coders". Also, he never insults them personally, but says that their code/argument is bad and that they are smart enough to know that already. Hence, they should stop making excuses and fix it already.
- simias 7y ago
  I still think that this tone is counterproductive, but that might be personal preference. I hate working in an environment where I know I can end up on the receiving end of some public humiliation if I voice a dissenting opinion or make a mistake. That's how you end up with people censuring themselves and not pointing out when somebody is actually making a mistake because they don't want to suffer the abuse. This is especially inexcusable coming from Linus because it's not like he needs to resort to these tactics to be heard or make an impression, he's one of the most respected software devs in existence (and for good reasons). You could remove all the abuse from his posts and you'd lose exactly nothing IMO. But this discussion is hackneyed, I know many people love Linus' style and think it's perfectly acceptable and even a good thing, I'm just definitely not one of them.
  - mritun 7y ago
    Sigh It’s sad that there are people who think calling garbage code garbage is inappropriate. What goes in their mind? Don’t they smell or call a smell a smell?
- TheFlyingFish 7y ago
  On at least one memorable occasion [0], he expressed surprise that the developer(s) responsible for some piece of code had survived to adulthood, considering they "were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on" as a baby. I'm not super aware of the context here, but at first glance it doesn't appear to be a high-profile coder with lots of kernel experience that he's talking about. [0] https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495

by simias 7y ago

needs 7y ago

As long as Linus is blaming the work done and not the people behind it, that's fine. Something truly aggressive would be "This benchmark is garbage and the people responsible for writing it are monkeys on crack". He did such things in the past, but in the 4 emails I got to find on this specific benchmark, none of them critic people writing code. I think Linus got upset that a badly designed benchmark got popular and therefor is spreading misconceptions. His strongly worded answer is getting popular too and as a result everybody learns and he has stopped an urban legend from spreading. A success on every points.

speedplane 7y ago
> As long as Linus is blaming the work done and not the people behind it, that's fine. Certainly, ad hominem attacks are worse than making substantive attacks, but is that really the standard we should judge it by? Instead of a sprawling thread of visceral, wouldn't it be better if he just explained the reasons why the approach is bad in a professional manner? Writing like this just seems sloppy and non-professional. It's rambling and unclear. It could have been far more effective if written point-by-point with far less emotion.
- xelxebar 7y ago
  Calling out non-professionalism and bashing a stranger's communication style are, perhaps ironically, nice examples of non-professional behavior. I would answer your rhetorical questions with an emphatic "no." People's emotions and mental state are important. It's also important that we communicate, understand, and think about people's interior worlds. Question for you: What else is Linus communicating with his writing style? Does he show that he cares? About what? What can we tell about his values? Are these values we want in a leader? Sometimes it's good to take off the prescriptivist hat and try on Honest Curiosity.
  - loopz 7y ago
    If what you're measuring are random delays due to default scheduling and flawed code implementation, calling it "garbage" should give the author and others pause to think. In some cases, one need to establish a boundary, so as to not waste time and efforts into an endless discussion on flawed premises. Explaining why and educating about the concepts, is the better approach, and was there as well. Short and concise would be best, while limiting the negative to exactly what need be pointed out: A spade is a spade after all. If it stops people from developing "their own userspace spinlocks", it may even be kind of necessary to be quite direct.
  - speedplane 7y ago
    > Calling out non-professionalism and bashing a stranger's communication style are, perhaps ironically, nice examples of non-professional behavior. I don't see how this is the case. One can critique a style of communication professionally just like any endeavor. I'm not "bashing" Linus, or even suggesting that he should be less honest. Just that there are far more effective ways to make the same point.
simias 7y ago
>As long as Linus is blaming the work done and not the people behind it, that's fine. I think your comment is just wrong and generally pure garbage. I can't believe some poor server will have to host this nonsense for years to come. It's the most inane thing I've read all year. I'm just talking about your comment, not you though, so clearly no hard feelings here and it's definitely the right way to frame my argument to have a nice, peaceful and constructive technical discussion.
- mda 7y ago
  Except your attempt is not exactly analogus to the situation discussed.
- needs 7y ago
  Believe it or not, it's one way or another to formulate a critic, and I'm fine with it. However your strongly worded answer lacks arguments, so color me unconvinced.
- AndriyKunitsyn 7y ago
  No, reductio ad absurdum is not an argument. What you wrote is an exercise in swearing. What Linus wrote is getting his point across. It is certainly possible to describe a code with bad words without hurting the feelings of person who made it, and I think, in order for it to work everyone has to understand that everybody writes “garbage” or “crap” code sometimes, so when it happens, it’s not a big deal; it shouldn’t hurt your professional dignity. On my job, in team of 4, we do it from time to time and it’s just much mentally easier, streamlined - and yes, constructive to conduct code reviews this way. I understand this may not work for other, bigger teams, but it’s certainly a valid way.
  - polishTar 7y ago
    There were ways for him to communicate those same ideas less negatively. And it was more than just the "garbage" line. It was also things like "If I haven't convinced you of that by now, I don't know what I can say.", and "See how simplistic - and self-centered - your expectation is?". Writing this way doesn't "streamline" anything. I interpreted it as a negative interaction, and clearly others have as well including the original author (since he said as much in his response).

diffeomorphism 7y ago

> yet an other entry in the "Linus bullies some poor coder into submission by insulting them until they just stop responding" Has that ever happened? My impression was that he only ever takes a rough tone with high profile coders and is nice and polite to "poor coders". Also, he never insults them personally, but says that their code/argument is bad and that they are smart enough to know that already. Hence, they should stop making excuses and fix it already.

simias 7y ago
I still think that this tone is counterproductive, but that might be personal preference. I hate working in an environment where I know I can end up on the receiving end of some public humiliation if I voice a dissenting opinion or make a mistake. That's how you end up with people censuring themselves and not pointing out when somebody is actually making a mistake because they don't want to suffer the abuse. This is especially inexcusable coming from Linus because it's not like he needs to resort to these tactics to be heard or make an impression, he's one of the most respected software devs in existence (and for good reasons). You could remove all the abuse from his posts and you'd lose exactly nothing IMO. But this discussion is hackneyed, I know many people love Linus' style and think it's perfectly acceptable and even a good thing, I'm just definitely not one of them.
- mritun 7y ago
  Sigh It’s sad that there are people who think calling garbage code garbage is inappropriate. What goes in their mind? Don’t they smell or call a smell a smell?
TheFlyingFish 7y ago
On at least one memorable occasion [0], he expressed surprise that the developer(s) responsible for some piece of code had survived to adulthood, considering they "were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on" as a baby. I'm not super aware of the context here, but at first glance it doesn't appear to be a high-profile coder with lots of kernel experience that he's talking about. [0] https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495