6 ms·

I guess if the government stopped putting a higher rate of black fathers in jail (they may show up).

by notrekasa 7y ago

TimTheTinker 7y ago
Very insightful. It becomes a vicious cycle when fathers aren’t even able to show up because they’re behind bars.
- notrekasa 7y ago
  It's a system built on discrimination, the idea that people of different color are going through the exact same thing is ridiculous. People love telling other people how to fix problems they have no idea about.
- drno123 7y ago
  I am not sure that numbers add up to support this claim. In Oklahoma, which has the highest percentage of black people incarcerated, there is approx 2.5% of the total black population imprisoned, while over 60% of black children are raised without fathers.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    Need more information. E.g. 2.5% of the total black population, but what fraction of the black father population? How many kids, on average, does each black father have?
tpmx 7y ago
So what's the incarceration rate for black men (or black fathers) in the typical age where they have children? (I guess ~18-35?) Seems like this stat should be publicly available. Perhaps I'm naive, but I can't imagine it to be more than 15% of this population [and that would be pretty extreme]. If that's the case, how can incarceration be considered a major cause of these fathers "failing from showing up?" (I guess we'd need a number for that, too..)
- cm2012 7y ago
  Roughly 1 in 9 black men between 20-34 are currently incarcerated (11%). It's probably a much higher percentage that have been incarcerated in the last 3 years. https://images.app.goo.gl/YkRnZyqdV4M5dSC19 https://images.app.goo.gl/YkRnZyqdV4M5dSC19
  - tpmx 7y ago
    1. That's an insanely large part of that population. 2. 11% still doesn't go a long way in explaining the "fatherless issue", although we probably need firm numbers on that too.
    - cm2012 7y ago
      "For boys born in 2001, the lifetime probability of incarceration is estimated to be 32 percent for young black men." That's absolutely enough to tilt the data significantly. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/mass-incarceration-statistics-united-states https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/mass-incarceration-statis...
      - tpmx 7y ago
        Yikes. Still, it doesn't change the father-away issue fundamentally, I think?
    - wavefunction 7y ago
      11% may even seem like a small number until you consider that not all the black men who have been incarcerated at least once in their life are currently incarcerated. 25% of black and hispanic men will face incarceration at least once in their life[0]. The incarceration is also skewed towards younger men who are one supposes potentially more likely to miss out on the formative years of their children's lives. It's also difficult for a strong family to develop in this situation imo. Life is about getting a good start and keeping that momentum going as steadily and predictably as possible. [0]https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/Llgsfp.pdf https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/Llgsfp.pdf
kkwak 7y ago
While there are injustices, what percentage of the jail time is due to actually breaking the law? Isn't it valid to put people who break the law behind bars?
- legopelle 7y ago
  I'd argue that depends on 1. laws being put I to place for strictly rational reasons, 2. arrest decisions do not depend on race and 3. punishment magnitude is equal for equal crimes.
- mlyle 7y ago
  If the law is just and fairly applied. If you make a whole bunch of laws that huge swaths of the population violate, and then use them to put subgroups you don't like in prison... it's not so "valid".
- JshWright 7y ago
  A) The laws have been specifically designed to allow targeting of certain populations (the "War on Drugs" has had a hugely disproportionate impact on non-white Americans). https://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5850830/war-on-drugs-racist-minorities https://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5850830/war-on-drugs-racist-min... B) Non-whites are way, way more likely to be arrested (despite similar rates of drug use), and receive harsher penalties. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304... The list goes on and on... "Broken windows" policing results in targeting of minority communities. Blacks and Hispanics are significantly more likely to be targeted under "stop and frisk" laws, despite equal (or lower) hit rates for contraband discovery when compares to whites.
  - kkwak 7y ago
    War on drugs. Is there a particular reason why weed is a necessity? Why isn't it fair to have banned it?
    - JshWright 7y ago
tasogare 7y ago
Yeah right it’s the government taking black men at random in the street and putting them in jail for the single reason they’re black, just to destroy the black community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the said individuals breaking laws (sometimes with the side effect of creating another father-less family in the process), which are the same for everyone. Also doing criminal acts is a choice, not something that happens by accident.
- notrekasa 7y ago
  sigh, so what you are saying black men and other men get the same sentences for the same crimes and its all equal. Thanks for the info.
- legopelle 7y ago
  Well yes, that's structural racism for you. And before you judge people for committing crimes, ask yourself: would you have abstained if you had the same life story? Do you think they would fall into crime less if they had a more privileged upbringing?
  - tasogare 7y ago
    Yes, I would have abstained. Mind you, my grand parents are from the very most "underprivileged" part of France, the kind of place were half of men are dead before 50. Still, what people do there was working hard, not theft, drug and robbing the few rich around. The problem is in large part cultural. You can see it easily with East-Asian immigrants that arrived dirt poor, yet saved and send their kids in college. After one generation they are not poor anymore. In Europe, the division are the same (White+Asian vs Black+Arab) despite difference in history (no descendants of slave). Also, education and healthcare are free and there is the welfare money. So why the results are similar? Because some value education and other don’t.
- Infinitesimus 7y ago
  Your perspective is 100% valid in a society that did not have several intentional attempts to punish a group of people because of their skin color. The USA is a society with a long documented history of actions to undermine a population because of their skin color so unfortunately, your perspective is a little too simplistic for this situation.

I guess if the government stopped putting a higher rate of black fathers in jail (they may show up).

TimTheTinker 7y ago

Very insightful. It becomes a vicious cycle when fathers aren’t even able to show up because they’re behind bars.

notrekasa 7y ago
It's a system built on discrimination, the idea that people of different color are going through the exact same thing is ridiculous. People love telling other people how to fix problems they have no idea about.
drno123 7y ago
I am not sure that numbers add up to support this claim. In Oklahoma, which has the highest percentage of black people incarcerated, there is approx 2.5% of the total black population imprisoned, while over 60% of black children are raised without fathers.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  Need more information. E.g. 2.5% of the total black population, but what fraction of the black father population? How many kids, on average, does each black father have?

tpmx 7y ago

So what's the incarceration rate for black men (or black fathers) in the typical age where they have children? (I guess ~18-35?) Seems like this stat should be publicly available. Perhaps I'm naive, but I can't imagine it to be more than 15% of this population [and that would be pretty extreme]. If that's the case, how can incarceration be considered a major cause of these fathers "failing from showing up?" (I guess we'd need a number for that, too..)

cm2012 7y ago
Roughly 1 in 9 black men between 20-34 are currently incarcerated (11%). It's probably a much higher percentage that have been incarcerated in the last 3 years. https://images.app.goo.gl/YkRnZyqdV4M5dSC19 https://images.app.goo.gl/YkRnZyqdV4M5dSC19
- tpmx 7y ago
  1. That's an insanely large part of that population. 2. 11% still doesn't go a long way in explaining the "fatherless issue", although we probably need firm numbers on that too.
  - cm2012 7y ago
    "For boys born in 2001, the lifetime probability of incarceration is estimated to be 32 percent for young black men." That's absolutely enough to tilt the data significantly. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/mass-incarceration-statistics-united-states https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/11/mass-incarceration-statis...
    - tpmx 7y ago
      Yikes. Still, it doesn't change the father-away issue fundamentally, I think?
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    11% may even seem like a small number until you consider that not all the black men who have been incarcerated at least once in their life are currently incarcerated. 25% of black and hispanic men will face incarceration at least once in their life[0]. The incarceration is also skewed towards younger men who are one supposes potentially more likely to miss out on the formative years of their children's lives. It's also difficult for a strong family to develop in this situation imo. Life is about getting a good start and keeping that momentum going as steadily and predictably as possible. [0]https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/Llgsfp.pdf https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/Llgsfp.pdf

kkwak 7y ago

While there are injustices, what percentage of the jail time is due to actually breaking the law? Isn't it valid to put people who break the law behind bars?

legopelle 7y ago
I'd argue that depends on 1. laws being put I to place for strictly rational reasons, 2. arrest decisions do not depend on race and 3. punishment magnitude is equal for equal crimes.
mlyle 7y ago
If the law is just and fairly applied. If you make a whole bunch of laws that huge swaths of the population violate, and then use them to put subgroups you don't like in prison... it's not so "valid".
JshWright 7y ago
A) The laws have been specifically designed to allow targeting of certain populations (the "War on Drugs" has had a hugely disproportionate impact on non-white Americans). https://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5850830/war-on-drugs-racist-minorities https://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5850830/war-on-drugs-racist-min... B) Non-whites are way, way more likely to be arrested (despite similar rates of drug use), and receive harsher penalties. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304... The list goes on and on... "Broken windows" policing results in targeting of minority communities. Blacks and Hispanics are significantly more likely to be targeted under "stop and frisk" laws, despite equal (or lower) hit rates for contraband discovery when compares to whites.
- kkwak 7y ago
  War on drugs. Is there a particular reason why weed is a necessity? Why isn't it fair to have banned it?
  - JshWright 7y ago

tasogare 7y ago

Yeah right it’s the government taking black men at random in the street and putting them in jail for the single reason they’re black, just to destroy the black community. It has absolutely nothing to do with the said individuals breaking laws (sometimes with the side effect of creating another father-less family in the process), which are the same for everyone. Also doing criminal acts is a choice, not something that happens by accident.

notrekasa 7y ago
sigh, so what you are saying black men and other men get the same sentences for the same crimes and its all equal. Thanks for the info.
legopelle 7y ago
Well yes, that's structural racism for you. And before you judge people for committing crimes, ask yourself: would you have abstained if you had the same life story? Do you think they would fall into crime less if they had a more privileged upbringing?
- tasogare 7y ago
  Yes, I would have abstained. Mind you, my grand parents are from the very most "underprivileged" part of France, the kind of place were half of men are dead before 50. Still, what people do there was working hard, not theft, drug and robbing the few rich around. The problem is in large part cultural. You can see it easily with East-Asian immigrants that arrived dirt poor, yet saved and send their kids in college. After one generation they are not poor anymore. In Europe, the division are the same (White+Asian vs Black+Arab) despite difference in history (no descendants of slave). Also, education and healthcare are free and there is the welfare money. So why the results are similar? Because some value education and other don’t.
Infinitesimus 7y ago
Your perspective is 100% valid in a society that did not have several intentional attempts to punish a group of people because of their skin color. The USA is a society with a long documented history of actions to undermine a population because of their skin color so unfortunately, your perspective is a little too simplistic for this situation.