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> Self-reliance is not considered a meaningful goal - it's so much more convenient to herd them towards ethnically-focused non-profits and "community organizers

by pm90 7y ago

> Self-reliance is not considered a meaningful goal - it's so much more convenient to herd them towards ethnically-focused non-profits and "community organizers" funded by government or by politically-minded foundations, mold them into people who will always be dependent on the government for something, 'useful idiots' for the political cause du jour. Sorry, there is no evidence for this at all. The community organizations that you speak of are trying to provide assistance as well. One can be self-reliant and also participate in their community.

mlyle 7y ago
I don't think it's deliberate. But we have a long history of harm being done by well-meaning efforts. It's easy for efforts to help to end up just creating more dependency and further collapsing the social order, and it's difficult to study the effects of charity. My charity in this area is Big Brothers Big Sisters (which is also mentorship based), because they have actual well-designed studies that show the intervention is very effective. The study design compared kids who were stuck on the waitlist for BBBS to those who they allowed to shortcut the line, and showed much better outcomes than the latter.
jelliclesfarm 7y ago
I think that I understand what they said. It happens at school..you take kids who are hormonally challenged and have angst and frustration and you rub them the right way, you can create an army for any cause. When you come from stable families and have personal mentors, the recruiting efforts in schools and colleges fail. Someone who is a friend living in Oakland mentioned the other day that black kids are going to be radicalized anyways there. It used to be that gangs were recruiting them in the past and now it’s schools recruiting them as they are the future vote bank when they become adults. It was remarkable to me in that how similar this was to radicalized students in India. But that was usually after high school and during their public university years...because single parenthood was uncommon (during my time there) and parents were very involved with their kids till school and then they become raw bill board material especially when they leave home to go to study. But in the USA, it starts earlier as public schools are parents and guardians by proxy. Single parenthood is more common and they have to work to make $$. That’s why I see school kids walking out to support their teachers when the teacher unions strike. I couldn’t believe it when I first witnessed it..they were kids and the teachers had no qualms about recruiting them for causes. I still can’t wrap my mind around it. As I get older, I value my youth..especially the years before I turned 25. I have always read and tried to study all my life but the most optimal time was in the first 25 years. I was able to read and retain what I learnt. I was able to absorb what I read. I had financial freedom and health. I didn’t have financial responsibility and it came little by little. I was still young enough that I didn’t feel bad about asking for help from my family if I failed. I was forgiven easily for transgressions and people were patient with me because I had potential that goes hand in hand with youth. I had someone behind me who would go after those who would want to harm me. I enjoyed what I call the ‘elasticity of youth’ in that I could make a mistake, bounce back and fix it without being overly judged. That is priceless. It mostly came because I had stable and supportive family. It is not ‘privilege’. I was the potential contained in the passed on genes of my family and they wanted to make sure I didn’t squander it. So they created the best environment for me. I had the added bonus of a large joint family which meant that the family was a miniature village of aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins, nieces and nephews as one family unit. Single parenthood is tough. I wish society would stop telling people that it’s easy. Community can take the place of family. Just don’t hand it over to govt that needs to be elected to maintain power and status quo.
- pm90 7y ago
  > It is not ‘privilege’. I was the potential contained in the passed on genes of my family and they wanted to make sure I didn’t squander it. So they created the best environment for me. I had the added bonus of a large joint family which meant that the family was a miniature village of aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins, nieces and nephews as one family unit. Single parenthood is tough. I wish society would stop telling people that it’s easy. Community can take the place of family. Just don’t hand it over to govt that needs to be elected to maintain power and status quo. That is quite literally the definition of privilege. What you call potential contained in the genes of your family is a myth. For whatever reasons, your family happened to be successful, but genetic fitness isn't the sole reason for their success. What you characterize as the elasticity of youth is also privilege btw. Kids from many backgrounds aren't able to survive pitfalls, the safety nets that privilege creates is what enables those who have it to continue their success while others are penalized heavily by institutions. > Community can take the place of family. Just don’t hand it over to govt that needs to be elected to maintain power and status quo. In a democracy, the government is representative of the communities it governns. Again, you and should rely on both: community for setting principles and culture, Government for securing law and order and maintaining peace. In the current situation, the Government is actively hindering many communities by heavily penalizing mistakes, setting those communities back by a lot.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    I think you may have missed parent's point. What he's saying is that having a "stable and supportive" family should really not be a privilege in the first place, regardless of material resources. Plenty of folks throughout history, even folks of very limited means and quite low station for their time, have had stable and supportive familied behind them. Families are an extremely important bedrock and building block of a community's social capital, and policy should explicitly recognize this. Calling all this mere "privilege" is a defeatist and devaluing attitude, that betrays a facile lack of empathy for the plight of those involved.
    - pm90 7y ago

by pm90 7y ago

mlyle 7y ago

I don't think it's deliberate. But we have a long history of harm being done by well-meaning efforts. It's easy for efforts to help to end up just creating more dependency and further collapsing the social order, and it's difficult to study the effects of charity. My charity in this area is Big Brothers Big Sisters (which is also mentorship based), because they have actual well-designed studies that show the intervention is very effective. The study design compared kids who were stuck on the waitlist for BBBS to those who they allowed to shortcut the line, and showed much better outcomes than the latter.

jelliclesfarm 7y ago

I think that I understand what they said. It happens at school..you take kids who are hormonally challenged and have angst and frustration and you rub them the right way, you can create an army for any cause. When you come from stable families and have personal mentors, the recruiting efforts in schools and colleges fail. Someone who is a friend living in Oakland mentioned the other day that black kids are going to be radicalized anyways there. It used to be that gangs were recruiting them in the past and now it’s schools recruiting them as they are the future vote bank when they become adults. It was remarkable to me in that how similar this was to radicalized students in India. But that was usually after high school and during their public university years...because single parenthood was uncommon (during my time there) and parents were very involved with their kids till school and then they become raw bill board material especially when they leave home to go to study. But in the USA, it starts earlier as public schools are parents and guardians by proxy. Single parenthood is more common and they have to work to make $$. That’s why I see school kids walking out to support their teachers when the teacher unions strike. I couldn’t believe it when I first witnessed it..they were kids and the teachers had no qualms about recruiting them for causes. I still can’t wrap my mind around it. As I get older, I value my youth..especially the years before I turned 25. I have always read and tried to study all my life but the most optimal time was in the first 25 years. I was able to read and retain what I learnt. I was able to absorb what I read. I had financial freedom and health. I didn’t have financial responsibility and it came little by little. I was still young enough that I didn’t feel bad about asking for help from my family if I failed. I was forgiven easily for transgressions and people were patient with me because I had potential that goes hand in hand with youth. I had someone behind me who would go after those who would want to harm me. I enjoyed what I call the ‘elasticity of youth’ in that I could make a mistake, bounce back and fix it without being overly judged. That is priceless. It mostly came because I had stable and supportive family. It is not ‘privilege’. I was the potential contained in the passed on genes of my family and they wanted to make sure I didn’t squander it. So they created the best environment for me. I had the added bonus of a large joint family which meant that the family was a miniature village of aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins, nieces and nephews as one family unit. Single parenthood is tough. I wish society would stop telling people that it’s easy. Community can take the place of family. Just don’t hand it over to govt that needs to be elected to maintain power and status quo.

pm90 7y ago
> It is not ‘privilege’. I was the potential contained in the passed on genes of my family and they wanted to make sure I didn’t squander it. So they created the best environment for me. I had the added bonus of a large joint family which meant that the family was a miniature village of aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins, nieces and nephews as one family unit. Single parenthood is tough. I wish society would stop telling people that it’s easy. Community can take the place of family. Just don’t hand it over to govt that needs to be elected to maintain power and status quo. That is quite literally the definition of privilege. What you call potential contained in the genes of your family is a myth. For whatever reasons, your family happened to be successful, but genetic fitness isn't the sole reason for their success. What you characterize as the elasticity of youth is also privilege btw. Kids from many backgrounds aren't able to survive pitfalls, the safety nets that privilege creates is what enables those who have it to continue their success while others are penalized heavily by institutions. > Community can take the place of family. Just don’t hand it over to govt that needs to be elected to maintain power and status quo. In a democracy, the government is representative of the communities it governns. Again, you and should rely on both: community for setting principles and culture, Government for securing law and order and maintaining peace. In the current situation, the Government is actively hindering many communities by heavily penalizing mistakes, setting those communities back by a lot.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  I think you may have missed parent's point. What he's saying is that having a "stable and supportive" family should really not be a privilege in the first place, regardless of material resources. Plenty of folks throughout history, even folks of very limited means and quite low station for their time, have had stable and supportive familied behind them. Families are an extremely important bedrock and building block of a community's social capital, and policy should explicitly recognize this. Calling all this mere "privilege" is a defeatist and devaluing attitude, that betrays a facile lack of empathy for the plight of those involved.
  - pm90 7y ago