5 ms·

Am I missing the breakthrough? This just reads like boilerplate tech marketing, replete with questionable ai usage. I suspect without its well known backer anyo

Am I missing the breakthrough? This just reads like boilerplate tech marketing, replete with questionable ai usage. I suspect without its well known backer anyone would notice.

jccooper 7y ago
They seem to be using computer vision techniques to dynamically aim the mirrors. Presumably static or open-loop techniques don't focus as precisely, and using a closed loop also allows them to reduce the stiffness (and this material use) in their mounts and/or fewer mirrors.
- sanxiyn 7y ago
  Closed loop enables higher temperature. I doubt material saving is worth it.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    Pointing hundreds of mirrors is expensive. Requiring a lot less rigidity for the motion system is notable. I don't doubt you could have done this open loop with a very rigid (expensive) platform before (including solving problems of ground subsidence). But now you can do it with a reasonably priced platform closed loop, which is what makes it actually possible.
    - core-questions 7y ago
      Could you expand on what closed/open loop mean in this context?
      - lifelongUU 7y ago
        Open loop means that they’re just using a mathematical prediction of where to point the mirror at a specific time, given the relative position between the heliostat, the target and the sun. adjustments to the mirrors are typically done every 10 to 15 seconds, which is sub optimal. Closed loop means that they’re actually using Computer vision to dynamically sense the specific angles between the sun and the target and then adjust the mirrors accordingly, no mathematical model required, and the adjustments can be done tens of times per second.
        core-questions 7y ago
        Thanks!
      - mlyle 7y ago
        Yah, it's a slight misnomer because both loops are likely closed. Open/closed loop basically means whether you check the result of an actuation. What we're really talking about is the point at which the loop is closed. A completely open loop would run the motor for the predicted time. A simple closed loop would run the motor until the mirror is pointing at the predicted angle, using an encoder to know where the mirror is pointing. The control loop encompasses a mechanical part of the system, but not the end-thing we want controlled. Or put another way, the loop is closed for actuator angle but is not closed for where reflected light goes. A better closed loop would run the motor until the mirror is reflecting sunlight exactly where we want it-- using magic to know where the light from this mirror is going.
        core-questions 7y ago
        Makes sense. So closed loop basically means there's a feedback mechanism in place to ensure that the input results in the desired output, or some sufficient proxy thereof.
        mlyle 7y ago
        Yup-- closed loop means you take negative feedback in some form, which forms a loop in the control diagram. In practice, you often end up with multiple nested control loops on this kind of system, each of which is closed. You might have a voltage controller deciding how much to turn on the motor transistors based on voltage feedback... You might have a motor speed controller which decides what voltage to give the motor based on speed feedback... With another position controller deciding what speed the motor should try to go based on position feedback... And then the magical-mirror-aiming thing deciding where the position controller should try to point it based on other feedback. And then the industrial process controller deciding how many mirrors should be pointing at the thing based on temperature feedback... And some other controller deciding what the temperature should be based on process feedback... And then humans turning the knobs on that controller based on QA feedback. (And each of these control loops usually gets at least 2x slower as the one it encloses).
- rasz 7y ago
  We have beed dynamically controlling mirrors in closed loop since mid seventies - year of the first CDROM drive. You dont need trendy technobabble like AI for this task.
sanxiyn 7y ago
Yes you are. High temperature from concentrated solar power has been something of a holy grail for a while. How it was achieved ("with AI") is less interesting than the result.
ma2rten 7y ago
If you watch the interview, the founder of the company never uses the word AI. He uses the words "software" and "computer controlled". However, he does say "yes" when the interviewer asks "So you use AI?".
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
awayfromhomenow 7y ago
old technology + AI == breakthrough. Kinda like back when everyone started moving to the web...

Am I missing the breakthrough? This just reads like boilerplate tech marketing, replete with questionable ai usage. I suspect without its well known backer anyone would notice.

jccooper 7y ago

They seem to be using computer vision techniques to dynamically aim the mirrors. Presumably static or open-loop techniques don't focus as precisely, and using a closed loop also allows them to reduce the stiffness (and this material use) in their mounts and/or fewer mirrors.

sanxiyn 7y ago
Closed loop enables higher temperature. I doubt material saving is worth it.
- mlyle 7y ago
  Pointing hundreds of mirrors is expensive. Requiring a lot less rigidity for the motion system is notable. I don't doubt you could have done this open loop with a very rigid (expensive) platform before (including solving problems of ground subsidence). But now you can do it with a reasonably priced platform closed loop, which is what makes it actually possible.
  - core-questions 7y ago
    Could you expand on what closed/open loop mean in this context?
    - lifelongUU 7y ago
      Open loop means that they’re just using a mathematical prediction of where to point the mirror at a specific time, given the relative position between the heliostat, the target and the sun. adjustments to the mirrors are typically done every 10 to 15 seconds, which is sub optimal. Closed loop means that they’re actually using Computer vision to dynamically sense the specific angles between the sun and the target and then adjust the mirrors accordingly, no mathematical model required, and the adjustments can be done tens of times per second.
      - core-questions 7y ago
        Thanks!
    - mlyle 7y ago
      Yah, it's a slight misnomer because both loops are likely closed. Open/closed loop basically means whether you check the result of an actuation. What we're really talking about is the point at which the loop is closed. A completely open loop would run the motor for the predicted time. A simple closed loop would run the motor until the mirror is pointing at the predicted angle, using an encoder to know where the mirror is pointing. The control loop encompasses a mechanical part of the system, but not the end-thing we want controlled. Or put another way, the loop is closed for actuator angle but is not closed for where reflected light goes. A better closed loop would run the motor until the mirror is reflecting sunlight exactly where we want it-- using magic to know where the light from this mirror is going.
      - core-questions 7y ago
        Makes sense. So closed loop basically means there's a feedback mechanism in place to ensure that the input results in the desired output, or some sufficient proxy thereof.
        mlyle 7y ago
        Yup-- closed loop means you take negative feedback in some form, which forms a loop in the control diagram. In practice, you often end up with multiple nested control loops on this kind of system, each of which is closed. You might have a voltage controller deciding how much to turn on the motor transistors based on voltage feedback... You might have a motor speed controller which decides what voltage to give the motor based on speed feedback... With another position controller deciding what speed the motor should try to go based on position feedback... And then the magical-mirror-aiming thing deciding where the position controller should try to point it based on other feedback. And then the industrial process controller deciding how many mirrors should be pointing at the thing based on temperature feedback... And some other controller deciding what the temperature should be based on process feedback... And then humans turning the knobs on that controller based on QA feedback. (And each of these control loops usually gets at least 2x slower as the one it encloses).
rasz 7y ago
We have beed dynamically controlling mirrors in closed loop since mid seventies - year of the first CDROM drive. You dont need trendy technobabble like AI for this task.

sanxiyn 7y ago

Yes you are. High temperature from concentrated solar power has been something of a holy grail for a while. How it was achieved ("with AI") is less interesting than the result.

ma2rten 7y ago

If you watch the interview, the founder of the company never uses the word AI. He uses the words "software" and "computer controlled". However, he does say "yes" when the interviewer asks "So you use AI?".

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

awayfromhomenow 7y ago

old technology + AI == breakthrough. Kinda like back when everyone started moving to the web...