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Its crazy how tribalistic HN has become. The whole Boeing fiasco has produced SO MANY "gosh, all those MBAs are at fault. I assign 0 fault to the engineers!" an

Its crazy how tribalistic HN has become. The whole Boeing fiasco has produced SO MANY "gosh, all those MBAs are at fault. I assign 0 fault to the engineers!" and every. single. time. There is a problem relating to a management/engineering decision, blame from HN ALWAYS goes to "the MBA types" and very literally never to engineering. I guess I just don't understand what the point of this type of tribalism is? Feeling better about your team while lamenting how everyone else is stupid seems pretty unhealthy.

Aperocky 7y ago
With high position came great responsibility. If the engineer instead of management were making those decision, we would blame correspondingly.
- ryguytilidie 7y ago
  Are you under the impression that management contains 0 engineers and that engineers had nothing to do with the decisions made...?
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    I'm under the impression that MBA culture has issues with taking responsibility for failure, and will always try to assign blame somewhere - anywhere - else.
    - jevgeni 7y ago
      That’s just shitty leadership. Happens A LOT even without MBAs.
MisterTea 7y ago
So the MBA's arent responsible for the people they manage? Or are the engineers rogue and answer to no one at Boeing?
- ryguytilidie 7y ago
  "how could you say we're really tribalistic and blame mbas for everything? Are you implying they werent 100% responsible and that engineers MIGHT have shared in the blame slightly? hahaha." Well this, if nothing else, certainly proved my original point?
- cjblomqvist 7y ago
  The point is not that it's completely the other way around. It's that it's not black nor white, but rather gray. In other words, engineers also have responsibility, as well as management.
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    It's management's job to manage. That's the definition of management - motivating, steering, and directing teams and organisations. If engineers are doing unsatisfactory work, it's management's responsibility to recognise the problem and fix it - whether that means finding better engineers, or developing better systems and processes for motivation, direction, quality control and oversight, or simply communicating strategy and culture more clearly. Of course here the subtext is that "tribal" engineers were just as responsible for Boeing's many recent failures as the C-suite were. And that's a particularly toxic and dishonest view, because we know from records that engineers were desperately trying to fix the 737 Max issues, while senior management were desperately putting short-term profits ahead of long-term consequences - with fatal results. There is no "also" here. The suggestion that there might be is a naked attempt to displace blame and rewrite history.
friendlybus 7y ago
The tech community has always had that element. It's nicer here than on Slashdot but it's here too. We've been through a boom for strong-man tech ceos with elon and amaz launching all kinds of projects. There's going to be a natural pendulum swing the other way for a bit.
salawat 7y ago
It comes from the fact that all the people at the top refused to back down or slow down despite all the warning flags being raised in engineering, and persisted in maintaining a system of incentives that left engineers in a position to choose between having to do something unethical, and keeping food on their family's table; all in the name of stock price. If it were Engineers at the top, we'd probably be lambasting them for abdication of their responsibility too if they made that decision. Make no mistake. If you would be a leader of men, tread carefully. For where you lead they will follow, and if you ignore their warnings and protestations, and lead them to calamity, upon your shoulders will rest responsibility. If you try and admit you can't make it work; no one can blame you. If you rush in as the fool convinced everything will work itself out, you were either incompetent, or worse, deranged, and thus deserving if ostracization and example-making-of. It's just how it works.
- jevgeni 7y ago
  While I agree with your point, I don't agree with the idea, that the engineers there are some Dickensian exploited workers struggling to feed their starving family. Those are white collar middle class employees mostly.
  - salawat 7y ago
    How many other Aerospace companies are out hiring right now? The answer? Not many. The industry is highly consolidated at this point. So the competition that normally ensures workers can vote with their feet isn't there. So... Yeah. When you're already hired by the biggest actor in town, the ethical calculus changes whether you want to admit it or not.
    - bumby 7y ago
      How many would you consider a reasonable amount for competition? There's 15 showing up on a cursory Indeed search, not to mention civil service entities that hire AEs
- CSSer 7y ago
  Ethical decisions have consequences that include blame. Engineers are well-paid, highly sought after individuals. As long as they manage their finances responsibly, walking away from a job should not be as dire as you make it sound.
tomc1985 7y ago
Having been through business school, the MBAs are much more likely to be complete numbnuts, an observation which is very strongly correlated with most of the CEOs and managers I have spent time with close-up
- ryguytilidie 7y ago
  "boy, people who aren't me sure are stupid!" Finally someone on the internet comes through!
  - tomc1985 7y ago
    Never said I wasn't one of those b-school idiots... it was a ghetto, full of big (shitty) ideas, five-dollar words, and a cohort that couldn't think for themselves if you stuck a gun to their head. I like to think I rose above but... sometimes I have my doubts
jevgeni 7y ago
The problems that MBAs are trying to solve are not those at which your average engineer is particularly good. Also, these problems are usually ill defined and not easily testable. On top of that, to "deploy" your solution you need to show a schizophrenic amount of confidence for the amount of ambiguity and risk you plan to take, and you have to do it all in the form of a PowerPoint slide deck for people who are most likely have no clue what you are talking about and have an attention span of a 5 year old child. All this leads to a relatively high error rate. So, it's easy for engineers to ridicule them, while still keeping well within their own comfort zone. It doesn't add credibility though, I agree.
- mkl 7y ago
  > a schizophrenic amount of confidence What does that mean? "A lot"?
  - jevgeni 7y ago
    Yes.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  So you're basically saying, MBA's are making decisions based on guesses and feelings, which would then be formalized in PowerPoint slides. I as an engineer like neither of those things. Research the market, create a product per spec, then write documents in markdown. The idea of business are not foreign to us, there are plenty of engineers who start business. And I think the balance is tipping over to the engineers. In my opinion we don't need a dedicated decision making class. decision making is a skill that engineer can acquire - no need to involve people with no technical understanding into the equation.
  - bumby 7y ago
    >we don't need a dedicated decision making class. decision making is a skill that engineer can acquire This statement seems to trivialize the skills necessary for good decision making. I would argue good risk based decisions and awareness of cognitive biases (not to mention more “science” based decisions from fields like operations research) probably should be based in formal mentoring/instruction.
objektif 7y ago
How so? If a certain group of people always CHOSE profit over doing the right thing other people or groups or teams or whatever you want to call them have every right to criticize them.
- ryguytilidie 7y ago
  "How could you possibly imply that us engineers blame MBAs for everything? Here is me following this question by saying that MBAs ALWAYS choose profit over doing the right thing and that all other teams do not so therefore we should criticize MBAs and engineers are above criticism. Do you think you'd understand my point if you had self awareness?
jm4 7y ago
It’s funny. If an article mentions how much someone in management gets paid, it’s all about how they don’t deserve it, they’re profiting off someone else’s sweat, they’re useless, it’s unfair, etc. Then you see something like a data breach or the Boeing fiasco and management belongs in jail because they didn’t put good processes in place for the engineers.
- bsder 7y ago
  The problem is that the managers don't have accountability at the same level they are compensated. If you are compensated better than 90% of your workforce, then you should receive better than 90% of the blame every single time something goes wrong. You're that important, no?
  - 6700417 7y ago
    Why should blame be tied to compensation? Compensation tends to be tied to perceived impact. The perceived impact of a manager with 10 reports who are all focused and delivering individually is much higher than the impact of a manager with the same number of reports where half the team meets few of their goals. The first manager is ultimately going to be seen as more effective and will get larger bonuses and will be more frequently promoted and ultimately grow the scope of what they own. That they happen to get paid more than individuals reporting to them is entirely appropriate based on their overall impact. That managers sometimes blame the people on their team for the failure of the team is bad management (and worse if the people above them blindly accept that) but I don’t think you can assign all blame to a manager just because they happen to be the manager and certainly not because of their relative pay.
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      > Why should blame be tied to compensation? Compensation tends to be tied to perceived impact. The perceived impact of a manager with 10 reports who are all focused and delivering individually is much higher than the impact of a manager with the same number of reports where half the team meets few of their goals. Maybe because when those goals involve cutting corners on safety and hundreds of people die as a result, that's one heck of a lot of "impact"?
MikeTheGreat 7y ago
Speaking of that bias, I just read this: https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis/amp/ https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merg... (Sorry about the 'amp' link)
- jsjohnst 7y ago
  All you need to do is remove ‘/amp’ from the end.
  - MikeTheGreat 7y ago
    Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely do that in the future!

Aperocky 7y ago

With high position came great responsibility. If the engineer instead of management were making those decision, we would blame correspondingly.

ryguytilidie 7y ago
Are you under the impression that management contains 0 engineers and that engineers had nothing to do with the decisions made...?
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  I'm under the impression that MBA culture has issues with taking responsibility for failure, and will always try to assign blame somewhere - anywhere - else.
  - jevgeni 7y ago
    That’s just shitty leadership. Happens A LOT even without MBAs.

MisterTea 7y ago

So the MBA's arent responsible for the people they manage? Or are the engineers rogue and answer to no one at Boeing?

ryguytilidie 7y ago
"how could you say we're really tribalistic and blame mbas for everything? Are you implying they werent 100% responsible and that engineers MIGHT have shared in the blame slightly? hahaha." Well this, if nothing else, certainly proved my original point?
cjblomqvist 7y ago
The point is not that it's completely the other way around. It's that it's not black nor white, but rather gray. In other words, engineers also have responsibility, as well as management.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  It's management's job to manage. That's the definition of management - motivating, steering, and directing teams and organisations. If engineers are doing unsatisfactory work, it's management's responsibility to recognise the problem and fix it - whether that means finding better engineers, or developing better systems and processes for motivation, direction, quality control and oversight, or simply communicating strategy and culture more clearly. Of course here the subtext is that "tribal" engineers were just as responsible for Boeing's many recent failures as the C-suite were. And that's a particularly toxic and dishonest view, because we know from records that engineers were desperately trying to fix the 737 Max issues, while senior management were desperately putting short-term profits ahead of long-term consequences - with fatal results. There is no "also" here. The suggestion that there might be is a naked attempt to displace blame and rewrite history.

friendlybus 7y ago

The tech community has always had that element. It's nicer here than on Slashdot but it's here too. We've been through a boom for strong-man tech ceos with elon and amaz launching all kinds of projects. There's going to be a natural pendulum swing the other way for a bit.

salawat 7y ago

It comes from the fact that all the people at the top refused to back down or slow down despite all the warning flags being raised in engineering, and persisted in maintaining a system of incentives that left engineers in a position to choose between having to do something unethical, and keeping food on their family's table; all in the name of stock price. If it were Engineers at the top, we'd probably be lambasting them for abdication of their responsibility too if they made that decision. Make no mistake. If you would be a leader of men, tread carefully. For where you lead they will follow, and if you ignore their warnings and protestations, and lead them to calamity, upon your shoulders will rest responsibility. If you try and admit you can't make it work; no one can blame you. If you rush in as the fool convinced everything will work itself out, you were either incompetent, or worse, deranged, and thus deserving if ostracization and example-making-of. It's just how it works.

jevgeni 7y ago
While I agree with your point, I don't agree with the idea, that the engineers there are some Dickensian exploited workers struggling to feed their starving family. Those are white collar middle class employees mostly.
- salawat 7y ago
  How many other Aerospace companies are out hiring right now? The answer? Not many. The industry is highly consolidated at this point. So the competition that normally ensures workers can vote with their feet isn't there. So... Yeah. When you're already hired by the biggest actor in town, the ethical calculus changes whether you want to admit it or not.
  - bumby 7y ago
    How many would you consider a reasonable amount for competition? There's 15 showing up on a cursory Indeed search, not to mention civil service entities that hire AEs
CSSer 7y ago
Ethical decisions have consequences that include blame. Engineers are well-paid, highly sought after individuals. As long as they manage their finances responsibly, walking away from a job should not be as dire as you make it sound.

tomc1985 7y ago

Having been through business school, the MBAs are much more likely to be complete numbnuts, an observation which is very strongly correlated with most of the CEOs and managers I have spent time with close-up

ryguytilidie 7y ago
"boy, people who aren't me sure are stupid!" Finally someone on the internet comes through!
- tomc1985 7y ago
  Never said I wasn't one of those b-school idiots... it was a ghetto, full of big (shitty) ideas, five-dollar words, and a cohort that couldn't think for themselves if you stuck a gun to their head. I like to think I rose above but... sometimes I have my doubts

jevgeni 7y ago

The problems that MBAs are trying to solve are not those at which your average engineer is particularly good. Also, these problems are usually ill defined and not easily testable. On top of that, to "deploy" your solution you need to show a schizophrenic amount of confidence for the amount of ambiguity and risk you plan to take, and you have to do it all in the form of a PowerPoint slide deck for people who are most likely have no clue what you are talking about and have an attention span of a 5 year old child. All this leads to a relatively high error rate. So, it's easy for engineers to ridicule them, while still keeping well within their own comfort zone. It doesn't add credibility though, I agree.

mkl 7y ago
> a schizophrenic amount of confidence What does that mean? "A lot"?
- jevgeni 7y ago
  Yes.
Aperocky 7y ago
So you're basically saying, MBA's are making decisions based on guesses and feelings, which would then be formalized in PowerPoint slides. I as an engineer like neither of those things. Research the market, create a product per spec, then write documents in markdown. The idea of business are not foreign to us, there are plenty of engineers who start business. And I think the balance is tipping over to the engineers. In my opinion we don't need a dedicated decision making class. decision making is a skill that engineer can acquire - no need to involve people with no technical understanding into the equation.
- bumby 7y ago
  >we don't need a dedicated decision making class. decision making is a skill that engineer can acquire This statement seems to trivialize the skills necessary for good decision making. I would argue good risk based decisions and awareness of cognitive biases (not to mention more “science” based decisions from fields like operations research) probably should be based in formal mentoring/instruction.

objektif 7y ago

How so? If a certain group of people always CHOSE profit over doing the right thing other people or groups or teams or whatever you want to call them have every right to criticize them.

ryguytilidie 7y ago
"How could you possibly imply that us engineers blame MBAs for everything? Here is me following this question by saying that MBAs ALWAYS choose profit over doing the right thing and that all other teams do not so therefore we should criticize MBAs and engineers are above criticism. Do you think you'd understand my point if you had self awareness?

jm4 7y ago

It’s funny. If an article mentions how much someone in management gets paid, it’s all about how they don’t deserve it, they’re profiting off someone else’s sweat, they’re useless, it’s unfair, etc. Then you see something like a data breach or the Boeing fiasco and management belongs in jail because they didn’t put good processes in place for the engineers.

bsder 7y ago
The problem is that the managers don't have accountability at the same level they are compensated. If you are compensated better than 90% of your workforce, then you should receive better than 90% of the blame every single time something goes wrong. You're that important, no?
- 6700417 7y ago
  Why should blame be tied to compensation? Compensation tends to be tied to perceived impact. The perceived impact of a manager with 10 reports who are all focused and delivering individually is much higher than the impact of a manager with the same number of reports where half the team meets few of their goals. The first manager is ultimately going to be seen as more effective and will get larger bonuses and will be more frequently promoted and ultimately grow the scope of what they own. That they happen to get paid more than individuals reporting to them is entirely appropriate based on their overall impact. That managers sometimes blame the people on their team for the failure of the team is bad management (and worse if the people above them blindly accept that) but I don’t think you can assign all blame to a manager just because they happen to be the manager and certainly not because of their relative pay.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    > Why should blame be tied to compensation? Compensation tends to be tied to perceived impact. The perceived impact of a manager with 10 reports who are all focused and delivering individually is much higher than the impact of a manager with the same number of reports where half the team meets few of their goals. Maybe because when those goals involve cutting corners on safety and hundreds of people die as a result, that's one heck of a lot of "impact"?

MikeTheGreat 7y ago

Speaking of that bias, I just read this: https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis/amp/ https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merg... (Sorry about the 'amp' link)

jsjohnst 7y ago
All you need to do is remove ‘/amp’ from the end.
- MikeTheGreat 7y ago
  Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely do that in the future!