7 ms·

China is harassing all of its coastal neighbours and trying to politically infiltrate just about every major country on the face of the earth. Russia is invadi

China is harassing all of its coastal neighbours and trying to politically infiltrate just about every major country on the face of the earth. Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. They don't really fit the same profile as Iran currently does. Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger plane, and got away with complete impunity. There are no good or bad guys. All the superpwers are dicks, that's how they got to being superpwers.

GorgeIo 7y ago
"...Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling..." Count how many times US has invaded other countries since 1949 and then come to your senses. I personally know a couple who came to my country from Ukraine because the Ukrainian fascists supported by the US were bombing their neighbourhood and killed their relatives. It was an orchestrated effort to spite Russia using Ukraine as an instrument. Who is loading the Eastern Europeran borders with Russia with arms and NATO personnel? Syria was saved by Russia as the jihadists were supported by yours trully US puppet. Please stop this nonsense. Use your brain.
- missosoup 7y ago
  This right here is a first-hand account of the '''good guy''' Russian angle. It nicely demonstrates the point I was making. Please don't engage with this individual in a flame war.
  - ianai 7y ago
    Kind of sad the text is gone for lack of reference. You nailed it on the nose.
    - wizzwizz4 7y ago
      It's not gone, just dead. You can enable viewing dead posts on your profile (but I really do not recommend it; they're dead for a reason).
      - surewhynat 7y ago
        I enabled it to read what it said, and there wasn't anything all that pro Russia in there... The main point was that the United States has invaded a lot of countries since 1949, and currently occupies a lot of those territories.
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    The anti-Russia narrative is also agitprop, of an equivalent degree of BS. Please stop contributing to it.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    Why hasn't your knowledge of USA actions in Iran made you more suspicious of "official" media accounts of USA actions elsewhere?
- keymone 7y ago
  Nonsense is “Ukrainian fascists shelling locals”. It’s been long suspected and has been confirmed in recent years that “local donbas militia” routinely shelled locals to turn them against Ukrainian army. The whole conflict started when Russian GRU officer brought a team of Russian military, captured some local buildings and started a revolt. It’s all public info for gods sake, there’s no longer need to spread propaganda about Ukrainian nazis anymore.
wz1000 7y ago
> Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger plane, and got away with complete impunity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
- missosoup 7y ago
  Someone did something bad. Therefore it's no longer bad for someone else to do it. ? I'm not seeing the 'good guy' POV here.
  - wz1000 7y ago
    Just pointing out how that description applies equally well to the canonical "good guys" too.
  - FpUser 7y ago
    Both are bad. Let's punish both. Are you up for the task? Ready to start sanctioning the US? And as long as first one gets away the others would do the same. This is how it works. Has nothing to do with good/bad because on that high level they're all big bad guys and had caused and keep causing lots of people die and suffer. They do not really give a shit as long as it advances their goals.
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    Alas you won't find an audience willing to provide such countenance to the mainstream Western narrative so easily. Its a very untidy and uncomfortable discussion to have. All you have to do, is gain an understanding of the people who have been victimised by the Wests' illegal wars. All other political biases fall to the side when confronted with an armless orphan who has been carried across Europe by her younger brother. Geographically, Americans do not have the wherewithal to deal with this reality. American tourists don't go to the refugee camp facilities - they'd rather see the concentration camp museum. If they did, indeed, have an idea of what life is like as a war refugee, say .. as a Yemeni or Syrian or Libyan or Iraqi child .. I believe the American people would finally arrest their war criminals. That is really the only way for the people of America to redeem themselves, and yet it gets harder and harder every day ..
entropyneur 7y ago
Not to dispute your point, but this strikes me as a rather wrong stick to measure countries' "badness". There's no difference between mistreating people within and outside of one's borders. Compared to the millions China is keeping in concentration camps the border tensions aren't even worth mentioning. Also, how does Iran not fit the same profile? It's currently #1 world news that their top official got bombed by the US while busy meddling in Iraqi affairs.
- elfexec 7y ago
  > Compared to the millions China is keeping in concentration camps the border tensions aren't even worth mentioning. It's millions now? Seems like every day, the propaganda keeps increasing the number. > It's currently #1 world news that their top official got bombed by the US while busy meddling in Iraqi affairs. So the country on the other side of the world that is bombing Iraqis is not meddling? Was it the general of a neighboring country the one that was "meddling" or was the US the one that is "meddling". You rarely see a twofer. An anti-china and anti-iran propaganda straight from the pentagon talking point. "In war, truth is the first casualty." -- Aeschylus
  - yorwba 7y ago
    > Seems like every day, the propaganda keeps increasing the number. That's been "the number" for a while now. E.g. Shohrat Zakir, chairman of Xinjiang, said during a press conference, when asked about the number of affected persons 一些媒体称新疆教培中心学员“有上百万甚至两百万”，纯属捏造、毫无根据 "Some media claim that Xinjiang's education centers hold 'a million or even two" students, this is completely made up and baseless." However, he failed to provide an alternative number, so "millions" is the best estimate available. http://www.scio.gov.cn/xwfbh/xwbfbh/wqfbh/39595/42206/index.htm http://www.scio.gov.cn/xwfbh/xwbfbh/wqfbh/39595/42206/index....
  - forgetfulusr 7y ago
    If only they had thrown in an anti-Russia propaganda in there they would've had me! /s we are way to easy to play with..
- 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
29athrowaway 7y ago
> Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. In the specific case of Crimea, it's much more complicated than that. It is an invasion, but there's much more about it than just "Russia invading neighbors", you're oversimplifying things. Russia invaded the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine, rather than all of Ukraine. In the Soviet Union, Crimea was an Oblast of the Russian SFSR. First secretary Nikita Khrushchev, who was of Ukranian origin, transferred the governance of the Crimean oblast from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954 as a "symbolic gesture". But after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, many Russians (an ethnic majority inside Crimea) were not satisfied with the resulting situation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History
- Const-me 7y ago
  > Russia is occupying the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine Russia also occupying parts of Donetsk and Luhansk. > many Russians were not satisfied with the resulting situation, including Russians living in Crimea Pre-war sociology shows 38% of Crimean residents wanted to join Russia, that number declining over time: https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-russkoyazychnogo-naseleniya-ukrainy/692296-rossiya-teryaet-krym https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-russkoyazychno... (Russian). 38% is indeed many people, but that’s still a minority.
  - 29athrowaway 7y ago
    I took that from Encyclopedia Britannica: > Ethnic Russians constituted a majority of the population in Crimea https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History About other oblasts like Donetsk and Luhansk, I don't think Russia has a way to make those territorial claims look legitimate.
  - surewhynat 7y ago
    This thread is not about Ukraine, but, if we must ... The protests in Kiev and other cities were violent and out of control. Ukraine was 6 months away from an election which they could have normally voted out their president, but, the people overthrew the government instead. Since then, the country has been so much worse off economically and socially. People have barely any money to pay their gas bills or buy luxury food items such as almonds. The GDP is currently one of the lowest of any countries in the world. Other regions in the country such as the Donbass also never wanted to overthrow their president, which is why they began their separatist movement which led to its current civil war. Crimea got a lucky break that it had the history that it does, and that all the Russian speaking population was there, and that there was Russian military presence there to enforce peace. Maybe pre-sociology shows 38% pre Ukrainian protests in 2012, but, a lot changed in 2 years during that complete anarchy in most Ukrainian cities such as Kiev, Odessa, and the atempted Anarchy in Donetsk. The people of Crimea very simply just want stability and peace, like most people do. > 97 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 89 percent voter turnout. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum
yyyk 7y ago
The Iranian regime helped kill at least half a million people in Syria - possibly more, the UN simply stopped counting a few years ago - and is busy killing protesters over half the middle east including in its own country. All while sabre rattling against Israel and the Arab Gulf state. The only reason Iran doesn't entirely fit your profile is because it's not a real superpower but merely a wannabe empire, not able to entirely get away with the evil stuff it does.
mythrwy 7y ago
Your last sentence hits it right on the head. Also want-to-be superpowers are dicks which leads to issues, often for them. It seems like there should be a better system globally but right now it's like a struggle of ant hills and maybe this is how the human race got to the level it is at. Through struggle and selection. Iran has been treated badly by the west no doubt. But their hands are not clean either. Was not this commander killed in Iraq organizing pro Iranian militias? From the point of view of the US can they allow Iran to become the dominant power in this oil rich world crossroads region? They can't and they won't. It's really that simple. "Right" only marginally enters into this equation. I guess I'd feel much more badly had the commander been killed in Iran organizing soup kitchens for the poor. But he was poking a bees nest and the results were as expected.

GorgeIo 7y ago

"...Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling..." Count how many times US has invaded other countries since 1949 and then come to your senses. I personally know a couple who came to my country from Ukraine because the Ukrainian fascists supported by the US were bombing their neighbourhood and killed their relatives. It was an orchestrated effort to spite Russia using Ukraine as an instrument. Who is loading the Eastern Europeran borders with Russia with arms and NATO personnel? Syria was saved by Russia as the jihadists were supported by yours trully US puppet. Please stop this nonsense. Use your brain.

missosoup 7y ago
This right here is a first-hand account of the '''good guy''' Russian angle. It nicely demonstrates the point I was making. Please don't engage with this individual in a flame war.
- ianai 7y ago
  Kind of sad the text is gone for lack of reference. You nailed it on the nose.
  - wizzwizz4 7y ago
    It's not gone, just dead. You can enable viewing dead posts on your profile (but I really do not recommend it; they're dead for a reason).
    - surewhynat 7y ago
      I enabled it to read what it said, and there wasn't anything all that pro Russia in there... The main point was that the United States has invaded a lot of countries since 1949, and currently occupies a lot of those territories.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  The anti-Russia narrative is also agitprop, of an equivalent degree of BS. Please stop contributing to it.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  Why hasn't your knowledge of USA actions in Iran made you more suspicious of "official" media accounts of USA actions elsewhere?
keymone 7y ago
Nonsense is “Ukrainian fascists shelling locals”. It’s been long suspected and has been confirmed in recent years that “local donbas militia” routinely shelled locals to turn them against Ukrainian army. The whole conflict started when Russian GRU officer brought a team of Russian military, captured some local buildings and started a revolt. It’s all public info for gods sake, there’s no longer need to spread propaganda about Ukrainian nazis anymore.

wz1000 7y ago

> Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger plane, and got away with complete impunity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

missosoup 7y ago
Someone did something bad. Therefore it's no longer bad for someone else to do it. ? I'm not seeing the 'good guy' POV here.
- wz1000 7y ago
  Just pointing out how that description applies equally well to the canonical "good guys" too.
- FpUser 7y ago
  Both are bad. Let's punish both. Are you up for the task? Ready to start sanctioning the US? And as long as first one gets away the others would do the same. This is how it works. Has nothing to do with good/bad because on that high level they're all big bad guys and had caused and keep causing lots of people die and suffer. They do not really give a shit as long as it advances their goals.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  Alas you won't find an audience willing to provide such countenance to the mainstream Western narrative so easily. Its a very untidy and uncomfortable discussion to have. All you have to do, is gain an understanding of the people who have been victimised by the Wests' illegal wars. All other political biases fall to the side when confronted with an armless orphan who has been carried across Europe by her younger brother. Geographically, Americans do not have the wherewithal to deal with this reality. American tourists don't go to the refugee camp facilities - they'd rather see the concentration camp museum. If they did, indeed, have an idea of what life is like as a war refugee, say .. as a Yemeni or Syrian or Libyan or Iraqi child .. I believe the American people would finally arrest their war criminals. That is really the only way for the people of America to redeem themselves, and yet it gets harder and harder every day ..

entropyneur 7y ago

Not to dispute your point, but this strikes me as a rather wrong stick to measure countries' "badness". There's no difference between mistreating people within and outside of one's borders. Compared to the millions China is keeping in concentration camps the border tensions aren't even worth mentioning. Also, how does Iran not fit the same profile? It's currently #1 world news that their top official got bombed by the US while busy meddling in Iraqi affairs.

elfexec 7y ago
> Compared to the millions China is keeping in concentration camps the border tensions aren't even worth mentioning. It's millions now? Seems like every day, the propaganda keeps increasing the number. > It's currently #1 world news that their top official got bombed by the US while busy meddling in Iraqi affairs. So the country on the other side of the world that is bombing Iraqis is not meddling? Was it the general of a neighboring country the one that was "meddling" or was the US the one that is "meddling". You rarely see a twofer. An anti-china and anti-iran propaganda straight from the pentagon talking point. "In war, truth is the first casualty." -- Aeschylus
- yorwba 7y ago
  > Seems like every day, the propaganda keeps increasing the number. That's been "the number" for a while now. E.g. Shohrat Zakir, chairman of Xinjiang, said during a press conference, when asked about the number of affected persons 一些媒体称新疆教培中心学员“有上百万甚至两百万”，纯属捏造、毫无根据 "Some media claim that Xinjiang's education centers hold 'a million or even two" students, this is completely made up and baseless." However, he failed to provide an alternative number, so "millions" is the best estimate available. http://www.scio.gov.cn/xwfbh/xwbfbh/wqfbh/39595/42206/index.htm http://www.scio.gov.cn/xwfbh/xwbfbh/wqfbh/39595/42206/index....
- forgetfulusr 7y ago
  If only they had thrown in an anti-Russia propaganda in there they would've had me! /s we are way to easy to play with..
7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

29athrowaway 7y ago

> Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. In the specific case of Crimea, it's much more complicated than that. It is an invasion, but there's much more about it than just "Russia invading neighbors", you're oversimplifying things. Russia invaded the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine, rather than all of Ukraine. In the Soviet Union, Crimea was an Oblast of the Russian SFSR. First secretary Nikita Khrushchev, who was of Ukranian origin, transferred the governance of the Crimean oblast from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954 as a "symbolic gesture". But after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, many Russians (an ethnic majority inside Crimea) were not satisfied with the resulting situation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History

Const-me 7y ago
> Russia is occupying the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine Russia also occupying parts of Donetsk and Luhansk. > many Russians were not satisfied with the resulting situation, including Russians living in Crimea Pre-war sociology shows 38% of Crimean residents wanted to join Russia, that number declining over time: https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-russkoyazychnogo-naseleniya-ukrainy/692296-rossiya-teryaet-krym https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-russkoyazychno... (Russian). 38% is indeed many people, but that’s still a minority.
- 29athrowaway 7y ago
  I took that from Encyclopedia Britannica: > Ethnic Russians constituted a majority of the population in Crimea https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History About other oblasts like Donetsk and Luhansk, I don't think Russia has a way to make those territorial claims look legitimate.
- surewhynat 7y ago
  This thread is not about Ukraine, but, if we must ... The protests in Kiev and other cities were violent and out of control. Ukraine was 6 months away from an election which they could have normally voted out their president, but, the people overthrew the government instead. Since then, the country has been so much worse off economically and socially. People have barely any money to pay their gas bills or buy luxury food items such as almonds. The GDP is currently one of the lowest of any countries in the world. Other regions in the country such as the Donbass also never wanted to overthrow their president, which is why they began their separatist movement which led to its current civil war. Crimea got a lucky break that it had the history that it does, and that all the Russian speaking population was there, and that there was Russian military presence there to enforce peace. Maybe pre-sociology shows 38% pre Ukrainian protests in 2012, but, a lot changed in 2 years during that complete anarchy in most Ukrainian cities such as Kiev, Odessa, and the atempted Anarchy in Donetsk. The people of Crimea very simply just want stability and peace, like most people do. > 97 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 89 percent voter turnout. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

yyyk 7y ago

The Iranian regime helped kill at least half a million people in Syria - possibly more, the UN simply stopped counting a few years ago - and is busy killing protesters over half the middle east including in its own country. All while sabre rattling against Israel and the Arab Gulf state. The only reason Iran doesn't entirely fit your profile is because it's not a real superpower but merely a wannabe empire, not able to entirely get away with the evil stuff it does.

mythrwy 7y ago

Your last sentence hits it right on the head. Also want-to-be superpowers are dicks which leads to issues, often for them. It seems like there should be a better system globally but right now it's like a struggle of ant hills and maybe this is how the human race got to the level it is at. Through struggle and selection. Iran has been treated badly by the west no doubt. But their hands are not clean either. Was not this commander killed in Iraq organizing pro Iranian militias? From the point of view of the US can they allow Iran to become the dominant power in this oil rich world crossroads region? They can't and they won't. It's really that simple. "Right" only marginally enters into this equation. I guess I'd feel much more badly had the commander been killed in Iran organizing soup kitchens for the poor. But he was poking a bees nest and the results were as expected.